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Christopher
12-23-2009, 10:12 AM
Just a heads up.
Washington is going to be ramming Gov heathcare up our rears by Chrismas eve.

The taxes start next year and the "" benefits haha"" start later (like 2013-2014 I think)

It may do no good but I'm calling my senators anyway to tell them I'm against it and express my willingness to tear it down.

Call and wish them a merry Christmas

2002wranglerX
12-23-2009, 11:04 AM
yup, get ready to bend over!

i'll sum up the bill for you. it costs a trillion dollars and basically mandates that you pay for AND MANDATES THAT YOU MUST HAVE health insurance, but the low life pieces of shit sitting on gov't assistance will continue to get it free.

oh, and it may or may not pay for abortions.... we'll see how it comes together.

Christopher
12-23-2009, 11:12 AM
Well you will face jail or fines if you do not purchase health insurance.
And it is so good that members of congress are not required to participate.
just us slave/subjects.

It will be heathcare with the style of low income/projects type housing

notmYJ
12-23-2009, 10:28 PM
I'm one of the lucky ones with a "cadilac" plan so I get to pay even more money!!! Whoo friggin whooo!

The only better than getting fawked by your government is getting fawked twice as hard.

My advice... Fire them. Everylast one of them. Not just at the end of this term, but at the end of EVERY term. They literally bought the votes to make this pass. It is disgusting to see the crooks saying how great it is to get this passed. They didn't do it for the people or by the people. They did it for themselves. They wrote the check, now we have to cover it.

FIRE THEM ALL!!!!

Super Scout
12-24-2009, 12:02 AM
^ Exactly they need to remember who they work for !!

Bird_Flu
12-24-2009, 11:34 AM
I'm sure one of my plans would be considered Cadillac plans as well, but it's not for lack of my paying for it. I wish I knew how much mine cost, I think the official line I heard is if your plan costs $23k or more per year (Congressmen's is $15K per year funny how that worked out) then you get taxed. I pay through the nose for mine (roughly 7% of my salary) but I do get very nice benefits.

2002wranglerX
12-24-2009, 12:28 PM
looks like it's going through.

**** YOU DEMS

not 1 repub voted for it

Christopher
12-24-2009, 12:58 PM
looks like it's going through.

**** YOU DEMS

not 1 repub voted for it

It's ""progressives"" Ry on both sides party means nothing at this point

Repubs have stood for nothing for so long they rendered themselves useless.

They have "seen the light" too late. Remember...
I had to abandon free market principles to save it. (beginning of bailouts)
Mccain being for illegal alien amnesty because it is good for business
etc etc

These are going to be interesting times.
There is alot of talk lately on how to kill this and starve this beast (gov)

I love how this is sold as reducing defecit when Obama has quadrupled it since taking office

in this same session they are raising their own credit limit because they are out of money again

This president and congress hates the makeup of this country and they are set on tearing it down.

how many will sit and let it happen.

my favorite gov hand-out quote..
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”- Samuel Adams

2002wranglerX
12-24-2009, 01:55 PM
my fault. Libtards. or progressively retarded

Christopher
12-25-2009, 12:47 PM
Win hearts and minds by educating people with the truth.
Leave the name calling to those who cannot defend their ideals.

machinerguy
01-03-2010, 11:42 AM
Let me see... Hostile takeover of manufacturing, hostile takeover of the housing industry, hostile takeover of banking, utter depletion of our national treasure, and now a hostile takeover of our health and medical system. We are now their property?
Once enough control is obtained, the weeding out of the undesireables will be easy.
In the thirties, people would come back from Germany with horror stories that no one would believe. The rest of the world was in denial. I keep hearing "That could never happen here."
Zombies.
What do we do? An don't tell me to vote. I do.

notmYJ
01-03-2010, 12:25 PM
Let me see... Hostile takeover of manufacturing, hostile takeover of the housing industry, hostile takeover of banking, utter depletion of our national treasure, and now a hostile takeover of our health and medical system. We are now their property?
Once enough control is obtained, the weeding out of the undesireables will be easy.
In the thirties, people would come back from Germany with horror stories that no one would believe. The rest of the world was in denial. I keep hearing "That could never happen here."
Zombies.
What do we do? An don't tell me to vote. I do.

That's the problem. There is very little we can do. Our elected officials have their own adgendas, and will do what ever they have to to further themselves. Our government was bought and paid for a long time ago.

Individually, there is not much we can do. Collectively, we need a grass roots uprising of elected officials that are for the people, by the people. Then when we get congress filled with politicians that are for the people, we vote them out, and do it again.

We are in a very precarious time. The government is such that it has become so corrupt, and ignorant of the people that it is on the verge of all out tyrany, like a runaway freight train. We the people, are just starting to see what's happening. Many haven't seen it yet. And some never will. When the people finally get organized to do something about the runaway govt, it may be too late.

The way our govt is spending money (both in the past and present) is going to bring the country to its knees. China is lending us all the money we need, but they are banking on us failing and they start to seize assets to recover their loans. Hmmm, what could they take? They could start with a large chunk of GM. Then get even deeper in our financial markets, and take possesion of banks. They could get into the healthcare. Etc etc.

I for one am very afraid for this country and the people in it. I fear, like so many times before, the people are gonna do too little, too late. Hopefully, I'm wrong, and the shit hits the fan real quick, and we come out of this. But....

justin'sbig7
01-03-2010, 12:32 PM
i see us following the roman empire. i pray that we can get a grassroots uprising but alas, i fear it may be too late as well. all i know is i will do what i can till the end.

SirFuego
01-03-2010, 01:14 PM
Capitalism in its purest form eventually turns into socialism or a dictatorship.

Health care is an instance where capitalism fails -- so the gov't needs to do something. Health care has an inelastic demand and is needed. So everyone can price gouge. Everyone includes a lot more than insurance companies -- it includes the hospitals with inconsistent pricing schemes to maximize profits, pharmaceutical companies that make a bunch of profits and the financial analysts tell you to invest in (this is a catch 22 though because many of the profits are reinvested into research), medical equipment companies that can charge an arm and a leg for a very specialized piece of machinery.

All of these inter-relationships make the prices go up.

The only way it's going to get under control is for the government to regulate the health care industry. Note that I said regulate and not "run". As of the last time I read it, I have very little problem with the heath care bill if they remove the public option.

The public option, though it's not marketed as such, is bound to kill insurance companies because they won't be able to compete with the low-cost alternative that they have no choice but to help fund (through the taxes they pay).

Maybe this is folklore because I haven't validated it, but I heard there was a county (in Hawaii I believe) that tried to give free health care in a similar way (give people the option to go through the gov't or private insurance) and it ran out of money in like 3-6 months. Why? They grossly underestimated the number of people that switched to the "free" health care. Whether it's true or not, I see no reason why this logic fails.

TimMichaels
01-03-2010, 01:42 PM
The way our govt is spending money (both in the past and present) is going to bring the country to its knees. China is lending us all the money we need, but they are banking on us failing and they start to seize assets to recover their loans. Hmmm, what could they take? They could start with a large chunk of GM. Then get even deeper in our financial markets, and take possesion of banks. They could get into the healthcare. Etc etc.

I'm not so sure that China's long term intent is to begin taking our assets. The reasoning behind them backing our economy is that by essentially subsidizing our overspending it ensures that their biggest market for manufactured goods can continually buy more and more. This has also allowed them to link their currency to ours and increase its value internationally (although now it is stuck.) China will suffer overwhelmingly from an economic collapse stateside due to a high percentage of their market being obliterated, and thus they help fund it to keep it alive. That said, it may also be a way for them to gain a stronger hand in international politics.

Either way it's a pretty precarious situation.

Christopher
01-03-2010, 03:44 PM
Capitalism in its purest form eventually turns into socialism or a dictatorship.

.

Please show me where. Where has capitalism turned into a dictatorship?

Do you mean unprincipled capitalism?
example.... do every thing you can even endanger or sell out people or your country for profit?

Doing something for profit is not evil.
Even if you provide life saving medicine or service.

This health care bill is not about helping people. I think it is for control and regulation of you.
If it is soooo good why is conrgess exempt?

Where are the mass graves of those who do not have healthcare?

SirFuego
01-03-2010, 07:33 PM
Please show me where. Where has capitalism turned into a dictatorship?

We all know that monopolies and collusion breaks capitalism.

Pure capitalism = unregulated capitalism (which has never happened, and I would argue never will). Think about a capitalistic society without anti-trust laws. You can sure as hell bet there would be collusion and mergers that would drive up prices -- regardless of what product is offered. Mergers would become commonplace. Eventually if enough mergers happen, there will only be a handful of companies that basically control everything. Those companies might compete for a while, but from a business point of view, a monopoly is better than competition, so they may eventually merge. It won't happen immediately, but I'd argue that given enough time, 1 or 2 companies will eventually control everything...

Profits aren't the problem -- greediness is. If someone (or some organization) has the desire to control everything and has the ability to work towards that goal. They will. Once someone (or some organization) controls mostly everything, you basically have socialism and/or a dictatorship.


Do you mean unprincipled capitalism?
example.... do every thing you can even endanger or sell out people or your country for profit?
Yep, health care is a prime example of this. If deserving people weren't denied coverage due to a technicality found by a lawyer hired to do everything they can to deny coverage to people, we wouldn't be having this argument.

Christopher
01-03-2010, 08:26 PM
We all know that monopolies and collusion breaks capitalism..

That still does not explain how capitalisim which is a market system becomes a form of government as a dictatorship.
I'll give you greed could take it there. The two cannot be considered the same or causing one or the other

It can when companies like GE which has the largest lobbying group in washington happens to be pushing cap and trade leg. when it stands to be the primary beneficiary.


[quote=Yep, health care is a prime example of this. If deserving people weren't denied coverage due to a technicality found by a lawyer hired to do everything they can to deny coverage to people, we wouldn't be having this argument.[/quote]

What makes people deserving of healthcare?

What makes it my responsibility to pay for you?

Why should I go to jail if I do not want to pay for your poor health?

Why should I pay fines or go to jail if I do not want health insurance?

What qualifies thr gov. to regulate this? what is their resume, social security? welfare? been fightin poverty since 1964
amtrak, medicare? cash for clunkers?

I'm not being mean... these are serious questions

TimMichaels
01-03-2010, 08:54 PM
What makes people deserving of healthcare?

What makes it my responsibility to pay for you?

In this sense, what about all other things provided by the government? What makes people deserving of the parks and public recreation facilities that are available? What about the roadways? Anything and everything that is subsidized in an effort to create affordability and/or make industries/jobs more profitable? To single out healthcare is a very narrow view.

Christopher
01-03-2010, 09:26 PM
In this sense, what about all other things provided by the government? What makes people deserving of the parks and public recreation facilities that are available? What about the roadways? Anything and everything that is subsidized in an effort to create affordability and/or make industries/jobs more profitable? To single out healthcare is a very narrow view.

That is only one narrow part of my argument. It could come under the constitution as promote the general welfare. Not provide general welfare.
It is part of the bigger picture

This has more impact than a state park or roadway
Just one example


"Waiting lists are a major problem. As
many as 750,000 Britons are currently awaiting
admission to NHS hospitals. These waits are
not insubstantial and can impose significant
risks on patients. For example, by some estimates,
cancer patients can wait as long as eight
months for treatment.

236 Delays in receiving


treatment are often so long that nearly 20 percent


of colon cancer patients considered treatable

when first diagnosed are incurable by the






time treatment is finally offered.

237



the above is found here from march 2008



www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-613.pdf (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-613.pdf)

machinerguy
01-03-2010, 09:48 PM
Public roads, parks, military, fire depts., etc are for the use and benefit of all citizens. They are not services provided to those the gov't chooses through the extortion of those they don't choose.
By the way, they do have laws and regulations covering the medical system. Who do you know that has been turned down at an emergency room for inability to pay? It is regulations and mandates that screwed up GM and Chrysler. (Where's that diesel JK?)
It's not the consumer who demanded shitty little econo boxes. That reminds me, where are all our natural resources going? Nowhere! Unused! Purchased from people who swear to wipe us out!
No rights come at another person's expense. Those are called services.
People on welfare should not be allowed to vote.
Jeez, this topic is so vast it's hard to keep my mind on track!
God help us. But we need to help ourselves first. God doesn't do welfare.

As a former hippy-punk-freak, I always knew it was America that allowed me my choices. I always chose self sufficiency and strength, and it disgusted me that so many people chose dependance and listlesness.

Note to self: Buy ammo for the other guns too.

SirFuego
01-03-2010, 11:57 PM
That still does not explain how capitalisim which is a market system becomes a form of government as a dictatorship.
I'll give you greed could take it there. The two cannot be considered the same or causing one or the other

It can when companies like GE which has the largest lobbying group in washington happens to be pushing cap and trade leg. when it stands to be the primary beneficiary.
If one or two companies are able to set prices and produce/sell whatever it sees fit, how is that really any different from the gov't controlling you? It may not officially be socialism or dictatorship, but in practice it essentially would be.





What makes people deserving of healthcare?

What makes it my responsibility to pay for you?

Why should I go to jail if I do not want to pay for your poor health?

Why should I pay fines or go to jail if I do not want health insurance?

What qualifies thr gov. to regulate this? what is their resume, social security? welfare? been fightin poverty since 1964
amtrak, medicare? cash for clunkers?

I'm not being mean... these are serious questions

Please re-read my original post. I am 100% against the public option (and all other points relevant to the public option such as mandating health insurance). I don't want my tax dollars paying for someone else's healthcare.

My point is that the reason health care is so expensive is because it's a market that prices can basically go unchecked and won't ever self-correct itself. Whether you want to admit it or not, you are currently paying for other people's healthcare. There are a number of people that get treatment that can't pay for it. Someone needs to foot that bill -- it propagates through higher healthcare costs to those that can afford it. Malpractice suits contribute significant costs to healthcare because insurance for doctors is so damn expensive. Make it harder to file malpractice suits (which from my understanding this bill will do) and costs automatically go down since insurance costs will go down.

The major problem, IMO, is that just having health insurance is no guarantee that they will pay for your medical bill. I'm sorry, but why should I be paying my hard earned dollars on insurance if some technicality such as a mole I've had since birth is considered a "pre-existing condition"? If I'm paying for healthcare, I want to have some idea of when I would NOT be covered, so I can spend my money elsewhere. I don't want to drop thousands of dollars to the same company only to find out I'm not covered in a time I expected to be covered.

My point is that there is a shit ton of bloat and greed in the health care system (that will NOT self-correct itself) and much of that can be removed through some regulation. I am not implying in any way that the gov't should run healthcare.

As for their resume to regulate stuff:
OSHA -- nice to know that certain safety measures can be met
FDA -- nice to know that the food and drugs I get are safe to consume
FCC -- nice to know that there is some organization to the radio waves that go through the air -- so that when I turn on the evening news, I know I'm getting the evening news and not a neighbor next door making their own public service announcement.
FAA -- nice to know that it isn't a free-for-all in the air

Christopher
01-04-2010, 12:34 AM
Thank God they run the military right....so far

I see and agree with some of your points.

This current leg is not what it is needed and I feel it is going to rammed through even states and people are looking at ways to dismantle it before it is passed.

It can be simpler and in smaller measures than 2000+ pages that no one knows what they are signing or who is doing most of the writing. (I heard the bill creating the interstate highway system was 14 pages, I've not verified)

We were sold the financial emergency bailout mess and we have extra TARP( still defecit) that is now a slush fund they are trying to find ways to spend instead of putting it back.

Whenever you have these clowns tell you something is urgent and needs done now it is no good.

I want no action before the wrong action especially when it is forcing me to participate in a already tried and failed system.

SirFuego
01-04-2010, 12:49 AM
Thank God they run the military right....so far

I see and agree with some of your points.

This current leg is not what it is needed and I feel it is going to rammed through even states and people are looking at ways to dismantle it before it is passed.

It can be simpler and in smaller measures than 2000+ pages that no one knows what they are signing or who is doing most of the writing. (I heard the bill creating the interstate highway system was 14 pages, I've not verified)

We were sold the financial emergency bailout mess and we have extra TARP( still defecit) that is now a slush fund they are trying to find ways to spend instead of putting it back.

Whenever you have these clowns tell you something is urgent and needs done now it is no good.

I want no action before the wrong action especially when it is forcing me to participate in a already tried and failed system.

Yes I completely agree. The rate at which they are trying to pass such a massive bill is quite scary. We were originally supposed to have this passed by September because it was such a "dire situation" -- and it's still not passed.

I'm convinced that the reason they are trying to push all this through is because of the Democratic majority so they can get as many Democratic policies passed before they lose the majority.

ridgerunner97
01-04-2010, 01:01 AM
^ Bingo, you hit the nail on the head with the idea of passing what they can while they have a majority, that is my thought behind the current rationale in the government regarding policy and actions.

mrdylanr
01-04-2010, 10:17 AM
i see us following the roman empire. i pray that we can get a grassroots uprising but alas, i fear it may be too late as well. all i know is i will do what i can till the end.

http://freedomvideousa.forumwise.com
http://www2.1stpa-militia.net/
http://www.pacitizensmilitia.org/

joshs1ofakindxj
01-04-2010, 01:05 PM
http://www.keystonepatriots.com/

TimMichaels
01-04-2010, 01:56 PM
I'm convinced that the reason they are trying to push all this through is because of the Democratic majority so they can get as many Democratic policies passed before they lose the majority.

Truth.

Christopher
01-05-2010, 11:25 AM
saw this today from us news and world report

Democratic Leaders Plan Secret Health Reform Deliberations

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/peter-roff/2010/01/04/democratic-leaders-plan-secret-health-reform-deliberations.html

my quick read is this story is coming form dem aids to bloggers.

a clip from above story...

Dayen reported that the powerful California Democrat told constituents he would be coming back to Washington Tuesday to begin negotiations with Senate leaders and the White House about what a final healthcare bill will look like—even though the House doesn't come back into session until January 12.
According to Waxman, the process for moving will not include the standard House/Senate conference committee, because the motions to select and instruct conferees in the Senate "would need 60 votes all over again." Instead, whatever agreements made could be packaged in an amendment to the bills passed by the House and Senate.
.

Christopher
01-05-2010, 11:38 AM
from c span
Democrats May Bypass Conference To Finish Health Bill

http://www.c-span.org/Topics/Health-Care-Insurance-Reform-Legislation-Town-Hall.aspx

triangulates article in earlier post found the link on drudge

notmYJ
01-05-2010, 12:54 PM
saw this today from us news and world report

Democratic Leaders Plan Secret Health Reform Deliberations

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/peter-roff/2010/01/04/democratic-leaders-plan-secret-health-reform-deliberations.html

my quick read is this story is coming form dem aids to bloggers.

a clip from above story...

Dayen reported that the powerful California Democrat told constituents he would be coming back to Washington Tuesday to begin negotiations with Senate leaders and the White House about what a final healthcare bill will look like—even though the House doesn't come back into session until January 12.
According to Waxman, the process for moving will not include the standard House/Senate conference committee, because the motions to select and instruct conferees in the Senate "would need 60 votes all over again." Instead, whatever agreements made could be packaged in an amendment to the bills passed by the House and Senate.
.

I wouldn't expect anything less from the current government. I'm really not surprised to hear they are doing everything they can to ram this down our throats.

PA AG Tom Corbett was on the Mike Pintek show last night on KDKA Radio, talking about the possibility of charges and litigation for the way the senate got the 60 votes, mainly the huge payout to Nebraska, and how the language in the bill makes the people of Nebraska a seperate class of citizen. Thus making it unconstitiutional. He then went on to mention that the Florida AG is looking into the constitutionality of this bill as a whole.

The piece isnt on his website as of this writing, But it should be up sometime today if anyone wants to listen to it.
http://www.kdkaradio.com/pages/3624256.php

Bird_Flu
01-05-2010, 05:09 PM
I'm not the least bit surprised by this. I just hope someone can find something to challenge this all the way up to the Supreme Court and get it tossed out. Rewriting bills in secret is no way to run a government.

Christopher
01-05-2010, 06:43 PM
HA HA HA

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) defended Congress' work on a healthcare bill Tuesday saying the process has displayed historic transparency, just as C-SPAN mounts an effort to open the negotiations

Here it is
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/74389-pelosi-responds-to-c-span-there-has-never-been-a-more-open-process

"The Democrats intend to lead the most honest, most open and most ethical congress in history." pelosi

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/01/05/2006_flashback_pelosi_says_dems_will_have_most_hon est__ethical_congress.html
.