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View Full Version : Uh-oh! I think I have a problem.



JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-01-2010, 09:21 PM
Ok, so hopefully there is someone out there that can help:100:. I have a 07 jk unlimited and when we (my wife and I) purchased it i promised my wife i wouldn't touch it till the current tires wear out:wreckerswife:. Well guess what? that ended about a week ago when the current tires didn't pass inspection. and so did my trouble/worry free jeep (go figure!). here's why... i installed a 5 inch trail master lift on it and purchased a shiny new-to-me set of dunlop mud rovers to compliment the lift. Wait the problems coming:017:, i installed the lift and had a problem with the esp (electronic stability program) easy fix i installed a drop pitman arm did a little adjusting of the steering linkage and problem gone. so before i put on the new tires, i went to have it aligned. i see no need in destroying a good set of rubber so i left the factory rubber on. the guy at the store tells me after 15 min he cant align it. i ask why and here is his answer "I cant align this thing because the axles are bent" :flipoff2:he goes on to explain blah blah blah, the passenger side front and rear need no adjustment they're fine. the driver side front and rear however are tipped out aka-positive camber. the only problem is, that that, is not adjustable on a solid front axle. now normally id just say to hell with it ill drive it like that and deal with it. but after he told me that, i thought id take it out and get it up to highway speed on route 43. guess what? as soon as the road had a rough spot, instant death wobble!! ive had death wobble before on previous jeeps but this was horrible as in no steering control at all and both sides were bouncing and actually screeching off the pavement. so in order to get home i drove 55 the whole way back because thats the speed the tires were happy going. now this (the alignment issue) apparently was a problem before because the front and rear driver side tires are both wore unevenly. i had noticed this before when doing routine checks of the jeep but i just chalked it up to having negitive toe in. which i knew would be fixed when i have an alignment. i know upgrading the steering stab and rebalancing the tires will help the problem a little, but with as much wobble as i had. i fear there is nothing i can do except change the axle. the lift i installed just magnified my problem.
What do you guys think?

Sleeper
04-01-2010, 09:26 PM
I think that next time you stop at Dairy Qqueen on the way back you should buy me a burger!

limegreentj
04-01-2010, 09:26 PM
check every single joint/bushing/bearing in the front end....there are so many little things that can cause death wobble. make sure everything is tight, im not a jk guy, but im just going off of common knowledge. make sure the control arms are tight. put the new tires on and see after you check everything.

also, is the lift a long arm lift or no? if not, that MAY have something to do with it.

Sleeper
04-01-2010, 09:29 PM
check every single joint/bushing/bearing in the front end....there are so many little things that can cause death wobble. make sure everything is tight, im not a jk guy, but im just going off of common knowledge. make sure the control arms are tight. put the new tires on and see after you check everything.

also, is the lift a long arm lift or no? if not, that MAY have something to do with it.
Not a long arm, i looked at it today..

Harley25
04-01-2010, 09:32 PM
That seems like a lot of lift on a JK without switching to adjustable tracbars.

limegreentj
04-01-2010, 09:32 PM
^ this too!

but the short arms could be a part of it...short arm lifts get pretty finicky and have weird road manners when you go up that high.

Sleeper
04-01-2010, 09:33 PM
That seems like a lot of lift on a JK without switching to adjustable tracbars.From what i saw i think he has an adjustable t-bar on it.....

fmlyof4whlrs
04-01-2010, 10:24 PM
JK's have longer arms then TJ's from the factory as you can sneak in a little extra lift. As for the camber being out by your axle being bent...how many miles and is it under warranty. It shouldn't have bent. Now if it's your Castor that is a problem that is normally adjusted at the factory as well. With a lift of that size it can some times rotate the axle throwing out castor..and camber too a little bit. You may have to adjust your control arms to rotate the axle back to a more natural angle. Maybe not yield a good pinion angle so you will have to compromise a little. Your alignment guy just might not know to adjust the arms as the factory adjustments are made using cam bolts on the control arms. But definitely check to make sure it's not bent or that you didn't rotate a tube.

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-01-2010, 10:24 PM
I think that next time you stop at Dairy Qqueen on the way back you should buy me a burger!

lol ill keep that in mind next time. did you have the yellow tj in the lot?

Sleeper
04-01-2010, 10:27 PM
lol ill keep that in mind next time. did you have the yellow tj in the lot?That was my GF's, we went to get tires today and did a lil wheelin, i have a 01 XJ with a 6'' on it. I live in BP.

I do alignments at my shop and know jeeps, if you want you can PM me and we could set something up, i HIGHLY doubt you axle is bent. If you do not mind me asking...... who "attempted" the alignment?

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-01-2010, 10:28 PM
From what i saw i think he has an adjustable t-bar on it.....

yes it does have an adjustable track bar and i have the axle centered as best as i can measure

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-01-2010, 10:30 PM
That was my GF's, we went to get tires today and did a lil wheelin, i have a 01 XJ with a 6'' on it. I live in BP.

I do alignments at my shop and know jeeps, if you want you can PM me and we could set something up, i HIGHLY doubt you axle is bent. If you do not mind me asking...... who "attempted" the alignment?

pep boys tried to do it.

Sleeper
04-01-2010, 10:32 PM
pep boys tried to do it.The on in BP? Theres your prob:046:

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-01-2010, 10:45 PM
JK's have longer arms then TJ's from the factory as you can sneak in a little extra lift. As for the camber being out by your axle being bent...how many miles and is it under warranty. It shouldn't have bent. Now if it's your Castor that is a problem that is normally adjusted at the factory as well. With a lift of that size it can some times rotate the axle throwing out castor..and camber too a little bit. You may have to adjust your control arms to rotate the axle back to a more natural angle. Maybe not yield a good pinion angle so you will have to compromise a little. Your alignment guy just might not know to adjust the arms as the factory adjustments are made using cam bolts on the control arms. But definitely check to make sure it's not bent or that you didn't rotate a tube.

yea i really was only looking for 3.5 to 4 inches of lift but this lift was cheaper and it came with more equipment than the others so i said what the hell ill get it. its not under warranty any more so thats out. other than a few mild wheeling trips this jeep has not seen much action yet but that was supposed to change with this lift and tires so i know i was not roughing it enough to break it or bend it. plus before i put on the lift this was already a problem i just never payed attention to it because i had no death wobble. plus in order for the axle to be bent to cause this, that would mean that the axle would have to be bent up like a rainbow. i had read before about the cam bolts but i'm unfamiliar with how they work or even what they do, so i didn't want to mess around with something i wasn't familiar with

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-01-2010, 10:46 PM
The on in BP? Theres your prob:046:

well maybe but i have not had to take anything to them to get an alignment before so i dont have any experience with them

2002wranglerX
04-01-2010, 11:29 PM
ok, with 5" of lift you're eventually going to need driveshafts, i can't believe you dn't hit your front off your crossmember.

and how big a tire are you running? guys run 35's with a 2.5, you can run 40's with 5" of lift and trimming!

and JK axles are notorious for bending. they make gussets and sleeves for them. however, if you haven't wheeled it i'd be suprised if really is bent.

post up the specs on the lift. with 5" you defenitely need front control arms, you're going to need to dial in more caster...

tjblair
04-02-2010, 07:26 AM
Did you atleast put cambolts in the front lowers, and knock out the alignment slug in the link pocket when you did the lift?

Super Scout
04-02-2010, 07:35 AM
What these guys said ^ we need some more info on the lift and what you did to the jeep exactly. 5.5" of lift is huge lift and there are alot of things to take into to consideration.

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-02-2010, 07:41 AM
ok, with 5" of lift you're eventually going to need driveshafts, i can't believe you dn't hit your front off your crossmember.

and how big a tire are you running? guys run 35's with a 2.5, you can run 40's with 5" of lift and trimming!

and JK axles are notorious for bending. they make gussets and sleeves for them. however, if you haven't wheeled it i'd be suprised if really is bent.

post up the specs on the lift. with 5" you defenitely need front control arms, you're going to need to dial in more caster...

i dont have any driveshaft clearance issues and i dont have any driveshaft vibration issues either im only running 35" tires i know i can get away with less lift for these tires but as i said in previous post i wasen't looking for 5" of lift when i bought this lift but it was cheaper. the lift came from 4 wheel parts in columbiana but if you look in 4wd parts cataloge its there

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-02-2010, 07:59 AM
Did you atleast put cambolts in the front lowers, and knock out the alignment slug in the link pocket when you did the lift?

no, i asked the guy at the store why some of these lifts come with cambolts and some dont. his answer was "some lifts may need them and some dont". so when i asked if i will need them he didn't have a definate answer except to say "if it doesn't already have them, i would wait and see if they are needed before i would buy them". oh and i have no idea what an "alignment slug in the link pocket" is, so could you be a little more descriptive on where and what that is, and how and why i would need to remove it? ive never had to deal with anything like that before, so this would be a first, and i prefer not to tinker on something until i'm fully informed. (other wise i end up logging on to PGHOFFROAD to ask for help on why something is not cooperating with me, and what can i do to fix it...lol...see previous posts...) but seriously i dont feel confortable taking away something without knowing why. at least with the lift i can just put it all back and fix my problem if i need to. (i prefer not to do that).

tjblair
04-02-2010, 08:06 AM
If you take to lower link out of the axel end pocket, you will see what Im talking about. They are kind of perferated little squares that you knock out with an air chisel. Then put some cambolts it it and that will give you a little adjustment. I might have missed it but I guess that youhave fixed links ?

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-02-2010, 08:06 AM
[quote=2002wranglerX;203209] guys run 35's with a 2.5, you can run 40's with 5" of lift and trimming! quote]

yes its true, you can run 35"s with 2.5 inches of lift but i like a little more fender gap than most people do.(its just what i prefer, and since its my vehicle, why not?...lol) so that is why i was originally looking in the 3.5" to 4" lift area. but like i said money talks and this lift came with everything the other lifts did, just at a cheaper price.

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-02-2010, 08:10 AM
If you take to lower link out of the axel end pocket, you will see what Im talking about. They are kind of perferated little squares that you knock out with an air chisel. Then put some cambolts it it and that will give you a little adjustment. I might have missed it but I guess that youhave fixed links ?

yes i do. do they give enough movement to get away with not having to buy adjustable lower control arms

tjblair
04-02-2010, 08:15 AM
If you already have those knocked out then and still cant get the caster dialed in the I would say that you need adjustable Links. But with 5 in of lift you probably should have long arms.

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-02-2010, 08:30 AM
If you already have those knocked out then and still cant get the caster dialed in the I would say that you need adjustable Links. But with 5 in of lift you probably should have long arms.

ok, well aside from the castor, because everyone is telling me how to fix that (which i appreciate by the way! dont get me wrong.) my problem is more the camber that is off is there any magic method or small tinkering that can be done with that. the jeep rides allright at 55 and below, but im going to chew through a set of mudders in 6 months if i cant get the camber straight! i can deal with the death wobble now (I think!) im going to get cam bolts and a dual stab and i think ill take an inch out of the springs with the cut off wheel. like i said i didn't want it that high to begin with and cutting the springs is a simple task to undertake.

2002wranglerX
04-02-2010, 09:18 AM
We fixed the dw problem with adjustable front lca's and toed the tires out slightly. My buddy had the 4.25 aev lift.

And with that much lift you're eventually going to need driveshafts.

Deadman 94 xj
04-02-2010, 09:44 AM
I'd learn how to do the alignment on your own. You should only need a couple of straight boards and a tape measure. I don't know what the toe specs are on the JK but you should be able to find it on line. (This is a sure way to know what you're getting)

At the very least, take it somewhere and get a second opinion. Pepboys isn't good for much at all in my experience. I'm sure somebody here can do, or can recommend a good alignment shop that isn't affraid of jeeps.

muddeprived
04-02-2010, 10:22 AM
Ok, so hopefully there is someone out there that can help:100:. I have a 07 jk unlimited and when we (my wife and I) purchased it i promised my wife i wouldn't touch it till the current tires wear out:wreckerswife:. Well guess what? that ended about a week ago when the current tires didn't pass inspection. and so did my trouble/worry free jeep (go figure!). here's why... i installed a 5 inch trail master lift on it and purchased a shiny new-to-me set of dunlop mud rovers to compliment the lift. Wait the problems coming:017:, i installed the lift and had a problem with the esp (electronic stability program) easy fix i installed a drop pitman arm did a little adjusting of the steering linkage and problem gone. so before i put on the new tires, i went to have it aligned. i see no need in destroying a good set of rubber so i left the factory rubber on. the guy at the store tells me after 15 min he cant align it. i ask why and here is his answer "I cant align this thing because the axles are bent" :flipoff2:he goes on to explain blah blah blah, the passenger side front and rear need no adjustment they're fine. the driver side front and rear however are tipped out aka-positive camber. the only problem is, that that, is not adjustable on a solid front axle. now normally id just say to hell with it ill drive it like that and deal with it. but after he told me that, i thought id take it out and get it up to highway speed on route 43. guess what? as soon as the road had a rough spot, instant death wobble!! ive had death wobble before on previous jeeps but this was horrible as in no steering control at all and both sides were bouncing and actually screeching off the pavement. so in order to get home i drove 55 the whole way back because thats the speed the tires were happy going. now this (the alignment issue) apparently was a problem before because the front and rear driver side tires are both wore unevenly. i had noticed this before when doing routine checks of the jeep but i just chalked it up to having negitive toe in. which i knew would be fixed when i have an alignment. i know upgrading the steering stab and rebalancing the tires will help the problem a little, but with as much wobble as i had. i fear there is nothing i can do except change the axle. the lift i installed just magnified my problem.
What do you guys think?

I see you said you installed a drop pitman arm. Was the trackbar mount dropped as well? They gotta be on the same plane.

Go to another shop and get the alignment done and set.

Perhaps the wheels were bent? Did anyone hit a curb really hard? Was this rig purchased new or used? If this was a issue from when it was stock then something obviously happened to mess up the camber on one side.

http://www.jeepfan.com/tech/JKAlignment.php\

(just something i came across when searching for answers)

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-02-2010, 10:39 AM
I see you said you installed a drop pitman arm. Was the trackbar mount dropped as well? They gotta be on the same plane.

Go to another shop and get the alignment done and set.

Perhaps the wheels were bent? Did anyone hit a curb really hard? Was this rig purchased new or used? If this was a issue from when it was stock then something obviously happened to mess up the camber on one side.

http://www.jeepfan.com/tech/JKAlignment.php\

(just something i came across when searching for answers)

the track bar was not dropped but it is an adjustable track bar. i'm trying to get another appointment set up somewhere else. i have never hit anything with the jeep it was used, but never offroaded. the person who bought it traded it in on a hummer, so i checked underneath it to look for some evidence of offroading and it was clean not even a scratch on the axles or diffs there are some now because of me, but even i didn't wheel it hard enough to do any damage.

muddeprived
04-02-2010, 10:46 AM
the track bar was not dropped but it is an adjustable track bar. i'm trying to get another appointment set up somewhere else. i have never hit anything with the jeep it was used, but never offroaded. the person who bought it traded it in on a hummer, so i checked underneath it to look for some evidence of offroading and it was clean not even a scratch on the axles or diffs there are some now because of me, but even i didn't wheel it hard enough to do any damage.

So what size drop pitman arm did you use? and what did you say you adjusted in the steering linkage?

Have you tried calling meridian? TJblaire could check it out. He knows his shi$. Get someone who deals with lifted rigs and alignment cuz they know more about the changes that occur and differ on a lifted rig.

When I had my TJ, Midas told me they could not align it to specs cuz it was lifted. That's when I learned how to align it myself (and i did get it to specs;) ) and been doing it since.

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-02-2010, 11:45 AM
So what size drop pitman arm did you use? and what did you say you adjusted in the steering linkage?

Have you tried calling meridian? TJblaire could check it out. He knows his shi$. Get someone who deals with lifted rigs and alignment cuz they know more about the changes that occur and differ on a lifted rig.

When I had my TJ, Midas told me they could not align it to specs cuz it was lifted. That's when I learned how to align it myself (and i did get it to specs;) ) and been doing it since.

i put in a rancho drop pitman that is good for lifts of 4 to 6"s and on the steering linkage i had to replace the upper tie rod because it was bad and they screw in to the steering arm so i had to try to line that up as best as i could that was the only thing i adjusted on the linkage but with those two things the esp stopped coming on and applying the brakes every time i turned the wheel.

Roamin
04-02-2010, 07:18 PM
you can turn the esp off with a series of turnin wheel, shiftin 4wd lever, ignition moves, its lenghthy but worth it, if interested, pm me and i'll try to find the paperwork on how to do it.

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-02-2010, 11:57 PM
you can turn the esp off with a series of turnin wheel, shiftin 4wd lever, ignition moves, its lenghthy but worth it, if interested, pm me and i'll try to find the paperwork on how to do it.

if you turn it off is there a way to reactivate if needed?

Dragonslayer
04-03-2010, 06:54 AM
Go to Daniel's :079:

fmlyof4whlrs
04-03-2010, 07:42 AM
Well...I looked at the trail master lifts. I assume you got the cheapest one with out the adjustable arms? If so that is probably your alginment problem you will probably need adjustable lowers or uppers. At the very least you will need to install some cam bolts. Leave it up to 4wd to tell you "might not need them" on a lift of that size. Haha they will tell you whatever they think you want to hear. If you ask...do I do this but it sounds like you don't want to spend the money. Their reply....oh no just give us your money now and when you have it all on and you need it then you will give us more later.

As for the DW it may help but not sure if you need a drop pitman arm or not. From the front of your Jeep kneel down and look at the track bar and steering linkage from the pitman arm to the knuckle. The track bar should almost hidden, they need to be on the same angle. If you are unsure what to look for take a picture from the spot and post up I am sure someone can look at it and give you some advice.

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-03-2010, 09:59 AM
As i said before i had to do something and do it fast:017: I needed to head out of town last night. wwwell... Im happy to report Im posting from a different location:024: (we made it!!!:icon_super:) I decided to try and fix what I thought all along was causing the death wobble before we left. I changed the toe in on the front driver side of the jeep, and took it for a cruise down route 43, (20 min before we left...lol...if it wasn't for the last minute id never get anything done!). My minor adjustment did the trick:023:, no DW, i got on the highway set the cruise at 65 (because i was nervous to go any faster:kyle:) and drove the 20 or so miles down to interstate 70. Not one wobble. So feeling a little more confident i turned around and set the cruise at 75 on the way back. Again not one wobble. When i got home i packed up the jeep, (convinced my wife it's safe for her and the baby:056:...lol) and loaded as many tools as i could in the back with the dogs,(just in case!!) and got on the road. We drove all the way up with no problems. Even when we took the the small 2 lane highways around here with 55mph speed limits, pot holes, and uneven pavement i never even had one wobble:023:. My little adjustment even made it more of a joy to drive...lol. (atleast compared to the day before when i couldn't even get it up to highway speed). Granted its not as nice to drive as stock but it wasn't bad. I would even feel confortable having my wife take it down the interstate. So with the major problem gone, i can now concentrate on fixing the castor and camber issues im plagued with. so as they say in hollywood, to be continued....

JEEPIN/J.S.A
04-03-2010, 10:13 AM
Well...I looked at the trail master lifts. I assume you got the cheapest one with out the adjustable arms? If so that is probably your alginment problem you will probably need adjustable lowers or uppers. At the very least you will need to install some cam bolts. Leave it up to 4wd to tell you "might not need them" on a lift of that size. Haha they will tell you whatever they think you want to hear. If you ask...do I do this but it sounds like you don't want to spend the money. Their reply....oh no just give us your money now and when you have it all on and you need it then you will give us more later.

As for the DW it may help but not sure if you need a drop pitman arm or not. From the front of your Jeep kneel down and look at the track bar and steering linkage from the pitman arm to the knuckle. The track bar should almost hidden, they need to be on the same angle. If you are unsure what to look for take a picture from the spot and post up I am sure someone can look at it and give you some advice.

yes i got the cheapest one no adj arms

That just surprises me with 4wd i've never had a bad experience with them they have always been very helpfull and very responsive with me. and i dont really fault them, as every lift is different and every application is different (thats a lot of stuff to remember) and every costumer wants to do something different with there vehicle.

i installed a drop pitman arm and the steering linkage and the adj track bar are now pretty darn close to being on the same angle.

highlandercj-7
04-03-2010, 12:56 PM
1st take it to a quality allignment shop. Then see what they say.