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jlovbasz3
10-04-2010, 02:41 PM
This is an email I received from U.S. Concealed Carry.com I do not agree or disagree with it.

I am a cop.
I stop you for a violation of motor vehicle code or law.
You have a weapon.
You have a concealed weapons permit.

What happens now?

I am writing this article as a cop. I am and have been that armed citizen, but that is not what I want to focus on. I am writing this article as a guide to dealing with us cops. Now, everyone has a story about cops. A large majority of those stories may not be what one could describe as "the most wonderful and joyous occasion in recent memory".

Realizing that we are always judged as a group, I try not to be "one of those cops". I have a background in the Marine Corps and grew up shooting and hunting from my earliest memories. My part time job (most cops have some other gig) is working in a local gun shop selling firearms.

I do not question the armed citizen's reasons behind carrying a gun. I understand and promote the concept of an armed and educated citizenry. There are differences in how you and I carry and employ weapons and how we may be involved in a deadly force encounter, but that isn't what I want to focus on either.

My goal here is to provide food for thought when dealing with a police encounter on the street or in your vehicle, while you are armed. I want to do this from my prospective as it may help you to understand it better. Sometimes in order to see things clearly, we have to see it from the reverse angle.

Where I work and live, in Michigan, folks who have a concealed pistol license are required to inform the officer stopping them that they have a weapon with/on them. They can be subject to a civil infraction fine if they do not disclose this information. When not carrying the weapon, they need not do this.

I realize that other states may not require this disclosure to be made. Some people may say that it is none of my business whether or not you have your weapon on you or in your car. To a certain extent, I can understand this. It seems intrusive when you are stopped and detained on a traffic offense. It certainly seems intrusive when you get a ticket right?

My question is why not tell the officer? What do you have to lose by telling me that you have your weapon on you?

Are you lawfully carrying your weapon? Yes.

Is that the reason I stopped you? No.

What are the ramifications of the officer knowing that you have your weapon on you (lawfully)? Well, I have heard many stories about cops doing things such as taking possession of the weapon during the course of the traffic stop. I have heard of officers who may instruct the weapon to be placed in a visible spot in the vehicle until the stop is concluded.

I have heard all sorts of stories about the cops that don't even know how to unload a different weapon than the one that they carry. I do not do any of these things, and I would not recommend these practices to other officers.

Truth be told, I very rarely come into contact with concealed pistol licensees in general. Why? CCW people just don't break the law that much. Upon occasion, I have stopped those with weapons permits in my jurisdiction.

My concerns when approaching the vehicle are primarily the occupants of the car. Traffic is always a secondary concern as is the rest of the environment of the stop, but that is my problem, not necessarily yours.

What I look for may be the positioning of the hands. What I like to see is both hands visible. A good place for the driver is on the wheel, 10 and 2 if you will. It is easy for me to see this as I approach from either side of the vehicle.

Passengers in a vehicle who may be armed can place their hands in their laps if possible. This may seem somewhat remedial, but you would not believe how many people start digging in their vehicle like they were mining for gold.

Picture yourself in my situation; just clearing an intensive domestic assault call or stand off with a suicidal subject and my first traffic stop afterwards is searching frantically around the car for god knows what.

1. Don't dig around...

Don't dig around looking for your paperwork, that French fry you dropped when the lights came on or your kid's pacifier. I do not enjoy putting you at gunpoint. It is stressful for both of us. We can avoid this problem by staying put and keep our hands comfortably visible.

I say 'stay put'; I mean stay in the vehicle. I realize that some jurisdictions may ask you to step from the vehicle. Do so when asked. Again, this may seem remedial, but someone who exits a car, without being asked, on a traffic stop gives an impression that he is either going to do us harm or run from us.

2. Eye Contact...

Make eye contact with the officer. Nothing says "I'm crazy" or "I have something to hide" like the 1000 yard stare down the roadway. This behavior has led to several searches, arrests, and some altercations upon further investigation.

3. Smile!

Like Mr. Rourke of Fantasy Island was fond of saying "Smiles everybody, smiles!" Make eye contact and smile. It will let the officer know that he can communicate with you.

4. Keep it hidden...

If you have the gun lying on the seat next to you or in plain sight, plan on having that muzzle related talk mentioned earlier. We know that an action beats a reaction almost every time. A visible weapon is an accessible weapon to a suspect. Concealed Carry means CONCEALED. Unless regulated by statute, I do not want to see your weapon. It would seem obvious, but even if you know this officer, this is no time to play a prank or joke.

I don't come to your work area and play practical jokes on you, do not do it to me. Your motives may be playful but the results could be devastating to you and the officer. I have had people do this before. For the life of me I do not know why and the resulting opinion is that the officer is a jerk for not getting the joke.

5. Take it easy...

No sudden movements to see if he is paying attention. No furtive movements to joke around.This may not be a potential lethal force encounter to you. It is to us, all of the time.

6. When do you tell him?

The time to inform the officer is upon his greeting. Do not say "I have a gun". Never utter this phrase. Never utter any variation of this phrase. There is no good that can come from that phrase when said to an officer. All we hear is "have a gun" and the rest is implied. The highway can be a noisy place and we may not hear everything you said.

7. How do you tell him?

Greet him and tell him you have a concealed weapons permit and the weapon is on your person/in the car.

8. Hand your permit...

Hand him your permit with your operator's license and any required paperwork like your registration and proof of insurance. The officer will likely ask where the weapon is. Tell him. There is no reason not to as long as you are abiding by local and state laws. Do not reach for the weapon unless asked to do so. Most officers, me included will not tell you to do this.

9. Then what?

The officer will most likely tell you very specifically to stay put or give further instructions based on training, experience, and departmental guidelines or operating procedures. Bear in mind that some agencies may have procedures and some may not. If you feel that action was taken that was unnecessary or infringed on your rights, check into the existence of a guideline or policy in the department involved.

If you are polite and proper, you may just even get out of a citation. You may not agree with the citation. This is not the time for that discussion. There are hearings for that. Even if you get a citation, thank the officer and be on your way. Take him to court to air your grievances.

Remember that you are a representative of all the concealed weapons permit holders out there, just as we are all the same cops. You have a responsibility to your fellow armed citizens to act in a manner that reflects well on your peers.

A bad incident involving a permit holder will resound with all the power that the media can muster. Your good behavior will not make headlines on a regular basis what so ever, but you may save the day once in your life.

In that respect, we are a lot alike.

J. Peters is a Law Enforcement Officer with over 10 years experience as certified officer, and was in the USMC Reserves from 1989-1998.

Meeke
10-04-2010, 03:17 PM
Good Post!

Dick.Breakey
10-04-2010, 03:24 PM
makes sense.

sethman15210
10-04-2010, 03:57 PM
man that makes the cops sound jumpy, and under-trained. good info though. but from my experiences as a permit holder and a avid supporter of self-deffense that article is not usually the case. ive have been drawn on by police officers a few times just for walkin in a store. my weapon isint visible except for the buldge and i never show it off or play with it. i got pulled over once for somethin stupied, told the cop i was armed and he drew on me started screamin and yanked me outs my jeep. i was cool as hel* about it but fallin to the ground hurts. now in each instance it was resolved quickly, but it seems heres a real lack of training on the departments end. plus as the article said about them not knowing how to unload and secure various weapons is true. my revolver they had no idea how to open it and my semi they couldnt get it to lock back. i always offer to show them but they dont take to kindly to that. im guessing the average cop has only ever shot a glock.

just my input, hopefully i dont et jumped on....lol

highlandercj-7
10-04-2010, 04:21 PM
Good post. The last thing you or the officer needs is for them to see a weapon while your bent down digging in your glove box etc. It's common sense to inform them ahead of time, so they don't get supprised and suprise you.

OverkillZJ
10-04-2010, 04:29 PM
man that makes the cops sound jumpy, and under-trained. good info though. but from my experiences as a permit holder and a avid supporter of self-deffense that article is not usually the case. ive have been drawn on by police officers a few times just for walkin in a store. my weapon isint visible except for the buldge and i never show it off or play with it. i got pulled over once for somethin stupied, told the cop i was armed and he drew on me started screamin and yanked me outs my jeep. i was cool as hel* about it but fallin to the ground hurts. now in each instance it was resolved quickly, but it seems heres a real lack of training on the departments end. plus as the article said about them not knowing how to unload and secure various weapons is true. my revolver they had no idea how to open it and my semi they couldnt get it to lock back. i always offer to show them but they dont take to kindly to that. im guessing the average cop has only ever shot a glock.

just my input, hopefully i dont et jumped on....lol

You're probably going to get jumped on. I'm not trying to be a dick - but if you carry yourself and "act" in person as you came across in those statements, between the spelling errors and overall feel of it, they're probably taking a lot of things into account when they consider you a threat.

EddyB
10-04-2010, 05:17 PM
Ummm no. Here in Pa. I am not required to tell an officer that I am carrying. So why should I? Now if he is pulling me out of the car and asks if I have any weapons, then I will tell him. To offer that info first is not necessary.

A lot of department have been taking liberties with our rights lately. I read about people having their pistols run to see if they are stolen all the time. Most of these incidents are people who are OC. I personally don't need a 5 min. stop turning into a 30 min. one.

Matt if you are gonna give people shit about their spelling you should learn how to spell "carry".

OverkillZJ
10-04-2010, 05:26 PM
Ummm no. Here in Pa. I am not required to tell an officer that I am carrying. So why should I? Now if he is pulling me out of the car and asks if I have any weapons, then I will tell him. To offer that info first is not necessary.

A lot of department have been taking liberties with our rights lately. I read about people having their pistols run to see if they are stolen all the time. Most of these incidents are people who are OC. I personally don't need a 5 min. stop turning into a 30 min. one.

Matt if you are gonna give people shit about their spelling you should learn how to spell "carry".

Fawker. Fixed

sethman15210
10-04-2010, 05:32 PM
Wat. Me know spell bab. I mean bad.
I knew I was gonna get jumped on but it's ok. I don't know how many people have experienced what I have but when it happens you don't forget it. I guess I look like a criminal. I also know you don't have to tell them nothin unless they ask if you're armed but if you don't or they're Havin a bad day you're gonna get hassled. I actually did file a complaint against the officer that dragged me out of my vehicle, all they did was make him apologize. But I had no hard feelings, better than getting shot by someone jumpy.

tjblair
10-04-2010, 05:56 PM
Haha, who posted link to this thread, and where did you post it? there are 23 guests on here right now and 15 of them are looking at this thread.LOL

Aran
10-04-2010, 06:03 PM
My question is why not tell the officer? What do you have to lose by telling me that you have your weapon on you?

Because the police abuse the law, their authority, and the people of their jurisdictions day in and day out. How am I to know that you're not going to yank me out of the vehicle, disarm me, cuff me, throw me in the back of the cruiser, or even decide to hurt me, simply for exercising my rights?

You can try to say "That never happens" but the truth is it does.

And it HAS happened to me in the past that simply carrying has caused me to be abused and harassed by a State Trooper. I'd go so far as to say assaulted, but his superiors all decided otherwise.

tjblair
10-04-2010, 06:07 PM
^ and there is one of those guests. try introducing your self first buddy .

Edit: just saw the join date, but an intro would be nice.

Aran
10-04-2010, 06:10 PM
Sorry, I guess I forgot I hadn't posted in the three years I've been registered here. I'm a member at a LOT of forums, occasionally I register at one and forget about it.

DMG
10-04-2010, 06:16 PM
A word of free advice: When a cop makes contact with you he is not your buddy or "on your side". He pulled you over to cite you and possibly fish for something to arrest you for. Giving any unneccesary information is foolish. If you inform him that you are carrying he may consider you a threat and use that information as probable cause to search your vehicle which can be an inconvenience or worse.

Just keep it to yourself in any state that does not require you to tell the cop.

tjblair
10-04-2010, 06:20 PM
Sorry, I guess I forgot I hadn't posted in the three years I've been registered here. I'm a member at a LOT of forums, occasionally I register at one and forget about it.

No big deal, just post up
http://www.pgh-offroad.com/forum/showthread.php?416-*NEW-MEMBER-INTRODUCTIONS*&highlight=official+new+members+thread

Mykal
10-04-2010, 06:37 PM
If you inform him that you are carrying he may consider you a threat and use that information as probable cause to search your vehicle which can be an inconvenience or worse.


How is that even possible if you are legally carrying? Wait... I know, I know... Not all officers know the law they enforce. The truth is that officers serve the state not the people. Two very important phrases to remember when dealing with officers are "Am I being detained?" and "I do not consent to your illegal search and seizure". Also, always carry a voice recorder and turn it on when dealing with any officer. It just might prove your innocence.

Aran
10-04-2010, 06:54 PM
Most modern digital voice recorders have battery lives measured in days, and are rechargeable. Always record.

ridgerunner97
10-04-2010, 08:20 PM
Not all officers know the law they enforce. Two very important phrases to remember when dealing with officers are "Am I being detained?" and "I do not consent to your illegal search and seizure".

Agreed 100%. As a student in this field, I honestly would prefer the individual to alert me to a weapon in the car, show me the permit for a handgun and just let me know if you have a long gun. Otherwise I don't give a ****, if your jumpy or don't let me know you have a weapon and it falls out or appears damn right i'm gonna get a lil irritated. If you are law abiding and have nothing to hide then why hide it? I agree with Dave and Ed on personal rights and liberties but I hope you guys can understand where I'm coming from.

Mykal
10-04-2010, 08:25 PM
I understand it. I dont agree with it. If I were a officer I would assume that every vehicle I approached had a weapon in it.
I will gladly tell them about my open carry hand gun placed in plain view if they do not notice it. Only when they ask if I have any weapons though. :)

Maybe the cops that want to play those games can move to Philadelphia. I mean the mayor did just state that officer safety is more important then violating civil rights in a recent case.

Deadman 94 xj
10-04-2010, 08:26 PM
Common sense goes a very long way in situations like this. That is all. Sure shit happens but I for one don't walk around with a hard on all the time. :)

ridgerunner97
10-04-2010, 08:27 PM
Don't even talk about Filthadelphia or the mayor of said city, not all people that are in LE or that field agree with what some of these asshole yayhoo types are doing in certain areas :)

flimmy
10-04-2010, 09:08 PM
I was once pulled over for speeding by a state trooper. I had my hand gun in the center console of my truck along with my reg and ins. card. I the reg and ins card out before he got to the car. After getting my ticket for speeding the trooper told me it would be in my best interest to go to court and get it reduced. Then he asked me if I had a weapon in the truck. I told him yes and he didnt say anything else. Now I do have a concealed weapons permit and I dont know if he knew it or not but I didnt tell him before hand but I didnt lie to him when he asked either.

I have always wondered if the cop that pulls you over can tell when he runs your info if you have a concealed weapons permit or not.

ridgerunner97
10-04-2010, 09:11 PM
That i'm honestly not sure of, a great question and i'm going to ask around about that.

Ragnorox
10-04-2010, 09:26 PM
I have carried for over 21 years. In those 21 years I have been pulled over more than times than I like to admit. That being said, I have yet to have a problem with any officer over firearms. I always greet them with a smile refer to them as officer and always hand over my permit with my license. during hunting season there is always a rifle and shotgun on the rack in the back.

sethman15210
10-04-2010, 10:17 PM
well i must be the exception, i guess being younger (27) with a go-t and long hair makes me look like a gang banger. i havent had any run in with state troopers yet but it seems like pittsburgh cops hate me. and the stupid part is i know alot of the officers in my area, my next door neighbor is one of them.

EddyB
10-04-2010, 10:18 PM
Agreed 100%. As a student in this field, I honestly would prefer the individual to alert me to a weapon in the car, show me the permit for a handgun and just let me know if you have a long gun. Otherwise I don't give a ****, if your jumpy or don't let me know you have a weapon and it falls out or appears damn right i'm gonna get a lil irritated. If you are law abiding and have nothing to hide then why hide it? I agree with Dave and Ed on personal rights and liberties but I hope you guys can understand where I'm coming from.


If I'm law abiding and have nothing to hide why should I volunteer info that I am not required to? Criminals are the ones who lie when asked if they have weapons, drugs, etc.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865&hl=en#

abrzrkr
10-04-2010, 10:29 PM
I have carried for over 21 years. In those 21 years I have been pulled over more than times than I like to admit. That being said, I have yet to have a problem with any officer over firearms. I always greet them with a smile refer to them as officer and always hand over my permit with my license. during hunting season there is always a rifle and shotgun on the rack in the back.

This.

I am always polite and honest. I have been given a warning or cited for a lesser violation in the vast majority of instances. Seriously, the cop is just a guy trying to do a job. If you are compliant with requests, non argumentative and pleasant to deal with in general it should make the officer's job that much easier. If you come across as articulate as opposed to belligerent they may be inclined to pick some one else to F&#k with. If you are in a pissy mood because the officer has pulled you over for breaking the law you don't have to be mad at them, it's not their fault. If you think the speed limit should be 110 mph then get the law changed.

abrzrkr
10-04-2010, 10:37 PM
There are many things that you do every day that are not required by law. This allows civilization to exist. Just because the law doesn't mandate something doesn't mean it's not still a good idea.

EddyB
10-04-2010, 11:49 PM
There are many things that you do every day that are not required by law. This allows civilization to exist. Just because the law doesn't mandate something doesn't mean it's not still a good idea.


I don't disagree with this. I do however feel that the more rights that we bend for this reason or that and the next thing we know they will be gone.

It's not that informing an officer of your ccw is not mentioned in the wording of the law, it is in fact stated that we are not required to disclose this information.

Aran
10-05-2010, 01:59 AM
I have always wondered if the cop that pulls you over can tell when he runs your info if you have a concealed weapons permit or not.
Not in Pennsylvania, no.

Mykal
10-05-2010, 07:41 AM
Agreed 100%. As a student in this field, I honestly would prefer the individual to alert me to a weapon in the car, show me the permit for a handgun and just let me know if you have a long gun. Otherwise I don't give a ****, if your jumpy or don't let me know you have a weapon and it falls out or appears damn right i'm gonna get a lil irritated. If you are law abiding and have nothing to hide then why hide it? I agree with Dave and Ed on personal rights and liberties but I hope you guys can understand where I'm coming from.


So your going to get irratated and take it out on me as an officer if I don't tell you I have a gun in the car? Great so you are just like most cops. You enforce your feelings despite what the law says. You can't treat me differently because I have a gun and didn't tell you just because you think I should have.

Deadman 94 xj
10-05-2010, 10:01 AM
Ahh, that's not most cops Mykal ;)

WTF is with all the cop bashing in this thread? Somebody has their panties in a bunch and it's starting to stink.

The article said Michigan. Holy fawk.

OverkillZJ
10-05-2010, 10:16 AM
Just like any profession- there's good cops and bad cops... That said, I think it's your choice whether to state it or not, and that'd probably depend on the situation. The fact that some officers treat you like a hippy illegal immigrant for carrying (which is a RIGHT) bugs the hell out of me, though.

fmlyof4whlrs
10-05-2010, 10:23 AM
I have noticed a common thing in all the post by people saying not tell them cause it violates their civil rights....it's that most of them start with every time I get pulled over. Here is an interesting thing to think about...my civil right to drive in a safe environment with out worrying about getting hurt in an accident caused by someone breaking a traffic law they think is stupid. First you are being pulled over for doing something your not. Next while you don't have to disclose the info it might go a long way in smoothing out the situation your are in. You say you don't tell them cause you don't have too....but the officer doesn't know that you are just exercising some right because at the time he pulls you over your a criminal who has shown no respect for one law and may not have a problem breaking others.

Now I have been pulled over and the one common thing about the times it happened was, I was guilty of breaking the law. So next time you get pulled over remember you have already shown a certain amount of disregard for societies rules and they have no way of knowing just have far that goes with you.

OverkillZJ
10-05-2010, 10:25 AM
I have noticed a common thing in all the post by people saying not tell them cause it violates their civil rights....it's that most of them start with every time I get pulled over. Here is an interesting thing to think about...my civil right to drive in a safe environment with out worrying about getting hurt in an accident caused by someone breaking a traffic law they think is stupid. First you are being pulled over for doing something your not. Next while you don't have to disclose the info it might go a long way in smoothing out the situation your are in. You say you don't tell them cause you don't have too....but the officer doesn't know that you are just exercising some right because at the time he pulls you over your a criminal who has shown no respect for one law and may not have a problem breaking others.

Now I have been pulled over and the one common thing about the times it happened was, I was guilty of breaking the law. So next time you get pulled over remember you have already shown a certain amount of disregard for societies rules and they have no way of knowing just have far that goes with you.

I see where you're coming from, but that "slippery slope" argument scares me a bit. I'm sorry, but if I changed lanes and forgot to use my turn signal and get pulled over, that does NOT make ame a threat to society. Hell I got pulled over for an "illegal lift and tires" a few months ago, neither of which were illegal. I'm such a threat...

Deadman 94 xj
10-05-2010, 10:31 AM
Eh, I'm going to get more coffee. :045:


I just get tired of hearing the same stuff all the time about how we're all screwed by the police. I've been on both sides of that argument at times I guess but it gets old. Most cops have a job to do just like anybody else. If I'm a cop and deal with idiots all day I'm going to be a little irritable. Especially since all I want is my paycheck and you have me out here pulling you over for whatever.

As far as the carry thing, here in PA you're not required to throw the firearm at the LEO upon his arival to your vehicle. That's great. I agree that it's usually best to keep my mouth shut when being pulled over. Less is more in situations like this. Let the man do his job, and go home. If he askes if I'm carrying I say yes. It's doubtful that he's going to take my firearm and beat me with it. Granted that can happen but so can a lot of other things. You can either live in fear of those things or not.

EddyB
10-05-2010, 11:57 AM
Ahh, that's not most cops Mykal ;)

WTF is with all the cop bashing in this thread? Somebody has their panties in a bunch and it's starting to stink.

The article said Michigan. Holy fawk.


I wouldn't call it cop bashing. It is just that some cops do not know the letter of the law when it comes to civilians and firearms.

Here is an example from my personal experience. A couple of years ago I dressed as a cheesy TV cop for Halloween. I had an unloaded pellet gun that looks like a 1911 in a holster for my real 1911. Some off duty cop started giving me all kinds of grief, stating that I could not carry a gun like that even if it was real. Mind you I was at a costume party in a bar. His wife and he were the only one's in the bar not in costume. I wound up removing the gun to appease him because I didn't want him calling the cops to the bar and causing trouble. He was completely wrong and out of line. I will never let someone bully me like that again just because he has a badge in his wallet.

So I was doing nothing wrong and was hassled all night(he eyeballed me for the rest of the night) and made me very uncomfortable. I told my buddy who is an undercover narcotics detective, the story the next day and his response was that he was probably some rookie on a power trip. He also stated that he never badged people in public unless a felony was being committed.

Since the article is from MI it really has no relevance here. Stand up for your rights before they are gone.

Doty152
10-05-2010, 12:47 PM
at the time he pulls you over your a criminal who has shown no respect for one law and may not have a problem breaking others.

Not saying I don't disagree with this, but in America, we are **supposed** to be innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Almost no branch of government or law enforcement abides by this. I think that 95% of police need a hell of a lot more training. They need to learn to keep their cool in tough situations, not automatically pull out their tazer because you are trying to tell them that they are violating your rights. I do keep a tape recorder in my Jeep and always tell the cop, as respectfully as possible, that I am recording this for both of our protection. I have no problem with law enforcement, I have a lot of family in it. I just think they are generally under trained. Just my $.02

Deadman 94 xj
10-05-2010, 01:05 PM
I wouldn't call it cop bashing. It is just that some cops do not know the letter of the law when it comes to civilians and firearms.

Here is an example from my personal experience. A couple of years ago I dressed as a cheesy TV cop for Halloween. I had an unloaded pellet gun that looks like a 1911 in a holster for my real 1911. Some off duty cop started giving me all kinds of grief, stating that I could not carry a gun like that even if it was real. Mind you I was at a costume party in a bar. His wife and he were the only one's in the bar not in costume. I wound up removing the gun to appease him because I didn't want him calling the cops to the bar and causing trouble. He was completely wrong and out of line. I will never let someone bully me like that again just because he has a badge in his wallet.

So I was doing nothing wrong and was hassled all night(he eyeballed me for the rest of the night) and made me very uncomfortable. I told my buddy who is an undercover narcotics detective, the story the next day and his response was that he was probably some rookie on a power trip. He also stated that he never badged people in public unless a felony was being committed.

Since the article is from MI it really has no relevance here. Stand up for your rights before they are gone.


I can respect that. I have a family member that's a cop down in washington PA and a couple of friends on with the city here. The friends fit the profile of the robocop wana be rookies. We don't talk anymore because they've all decided that they can't associate with people that don't wear the uniform. I know an oldtimer on the job that knows my friends. His take on it is that the robocop wantabees are a nuisance and don't get a whole lot respect except from the fellow noobies.

My point is, yes there are assholes that abuse their postions but it's my opinion that the majority do not. It's easy to get pissed off at the ones that do and lable them all but it's just not right. My family member would give anybody the shirt off his back and looks at the job as just that, a job. He's just a guy like you and me.

I can understand the protection of rights aguments when you have people living in fear because of a couple of idiot cops. And I agree that there is abuse but to label all cops the way we do here sometimes is rediculous given my background. I've had my share of run ins myself.

I guess really what I hate is having this forum labled as a bunch of wheelin cop haters given how many times this subject seems to come up.

Deadman 94 xj
10-05-2010, 01:13 PM
I also believe that if people used more common sense in these types of situations our rights wouldn't be at stake. It's the dumb laws are made that remove our rights. Just like there in MI, I'm sure some idiot ruined it for the rest of them leaving the majority to cater to the idiots.

jackb1
10-05-2010, 02:29 PM
I have been disarmed once. I'm not saying anybody needs to volunteer any info that they don't need to by law -it is your decision to make. I chose to volunteer info and given the circumstance, I think everything turned out better for me having been cordial and voluntary. Had I tried to prove my knowledge of the law and had a hard-on about the situation, I have a strong feeling things would have turned out worse for me. Granted, I still ended up with a huge fine but I'd made a mistake and could have ended up with a lot worse. I recognized my (very honest mistake) and tried to resolve the situation as reasonably as possible. To me, that was volunteering information and I believe it kept me and others I was with from a much worse outcome.

I hope that I don't need to deal with police in that manner again, but for me the decision is clear that if necessary, will politely volunteer the information that I'm carrying (should I choose to carry). Because if I choose to do so, it isn't to prove a point or to prove I know what is legal within the letter of the law. Although it might be legal, I don't see it as prudent. If I chose to carry, then the reason is for self-defense. I for one, don't feel the need to be able to defend myself with deadly force against LEOs and see virtually no benefit to concealing that fact that I'm concealing a weapon.

Aran
10-05-2010, 02:54 PM
Unfortunately, we don't live in a world where police are mindless automatons who can only act within strict letter of the law and are unable to do harm.

We live in a world where police officers can and do hurt people, even when the people have done nothing wrong. I could barely operate my motorcycle to get home after the abuse I was subjected to by the state trooper who saw fit to assault me for simply open carrying because he "didn't like it."

Wrecker
10-05-2010, 02:56 PM
I used to volunteer the info. Never had a problem. Then met up with a younger suburban officer. After dealing with him, I will only do so if asked if I am armed. Because one officer decides to through his wait around, it ruins it for the good ones. And my brother is a LEO. He has given me a lot of hints on what to do in a stop. And most of that is to protect my rights, because he sees what goes down.

Muzikman
10-05-2010, 03:47 PM
well i must be the exception, i guess being younger (27) with a go-t and long hair makes me look like a gang banger. i havent had any run in with state troopers yet but it seems like pittsburgh cops hate me. and the stupid part is i know alot of the officers in my area, my next door neighbor is one of them.

Funny. I have had long hair and goatee for close to 18 years and I don't get roughed up by the police.

JeepSteeler
10-05-2010, 04:12 PM
I smile, be polite, answer questions that they ask. Thank them when they are done writing the citation or whatever. I don't go out of my way to make the interaction any longer than it needs to be. Check your ego at the door, take it, and move on.

DMG
10-05-2010, 04:43 PM
I but the officer doesn't know that you are just exercising some right because at the time he pulls you over your a criminal who has shown no respect for one law and may not have a problem breaking others.
.

Yes, if I am going 65 in a 55 I probably am a murderer too.

Your entire post is idiotic, not just what I quoted.

Mykal
10-05-2010, 05:43 PM
LOL @ DMG

My opinion has nothing to do with ego. I dont carry to look like a bad ass. I dont carry to show it off. It doesnt leave the holster in public unless I intend to fire it. My opinion has everything to do with protecting my rights. There is not a officer in the U.S. thats obligated to protect my rights or my safety. If I dont know my rights and I agree (or I dont protest) then I could get hung out to dry real fast. There are some decent officers out there I dont lump them all together as bad eggs. That doesnt mean that I trust every officer that I come in to contact with though.

Deadman 94 xj
10-05-2010, 07:25 PM
I hear ya, I guess I kinda went off on a little tangent there. Almost off topic lol.


What are our rights anyway? Everybody keeps talking about how their rights are going to get stolen, I was just wondering what they are. I only know of the "right to bear arms" regarding this subject. I'm being honest.

For anything else I'd say it's common sense. If you have a permit to carry than you shouldn't be harassed for carrying unless you've done something stupid with the weapon. If a cop asks if you're carrying than you should tell him/her that you are. If he doesn't ask but you feel the need to say so given the circumstances than you should do so. I don't understand what rights we're talking about here.

I can't imagine a cop taking your weapon for carrying, with a permit.

As far as open carrying, I don't understand that concept at all. I guess if you're coming froma range or hunting or something but just day to day open carrying? That wouldn't go over very well in the city. You'd get a lot of unwanted attention and not just from the legal side.

DMG
10-05-2010, 08:53 PM
I also believe that if people used more common sense in these types of situations our rights wouldn't be at stake. It's the dumb laws are made that remove our rights. Just like there in MI, I'm sure some idiot ruined it for the rest of them leaving the majority to cater to the idiots.

I think we are losing our rights because the average non-thinking, TV-addled American is happy to trade freedom for the illusion of security and because the ever-growing government needs to justify its existence.

Deadman 94 xj
10-05-2010, 08:59 PM
Nicely said. I can't argue there. I was aiming more toward the reason laws are made in the first place. We don't really have a leg to stand on against the government when we're the cause. Figuratively speaking of course.

Mykal
10-05-2010, 09:48 PM
I hear ya, I guess I kinda went off on a little tangent there. Almost off topic lol.


What are our rights anyway? Everybody keeps talking about how their rights are going to get stolen, I was just wondering what they are. I only know of the "right to bear arms" regarding this subject. I'm being honest.

For anything else I'd say it's common sense. If you have a permit to carry than you shouldn't be harassed for carrying unless you've done something stupid with the weapon. If a cop asks if you're carrying than you should tell him/her that you are. If he doesn't ask but you feel the need to say so given the circumstances than you should do so. I don't understand what rights we're talking about here.

I can't imagine a cop taking your weapon for carrying, with a permit.

As far as open carrying, I don't understand that concept at all. I guess if you're coming froma range or hunting or something but just day to day open carrying? That wouldn't go over very well in the city. You'd get a lot of unwanted attention and not just from the legal side.

Rights... Heres a quick rundown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_and_political_rights) Those are a small portion. There are way to many to list, seriously.

As far as having your weapon taken.
Heres a case (http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/107298-negative-encounter-ppd-afternoon-schooled-sgt-39th.html) in Philadelphia with Audio (http://www.supload.com/sound_confirm.php?get=1048603982.wma) that the man recorded.

Here is a story (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?80244-%E2%80%9COfficers%E2%80%99-safety-comes-first-and-not-infringing-on-people%E2%80%99s-rights-comes-second%E2%80%9D) about nine men arrested for weapons possesion. All of whom had valid concealed carry permits. Then the Mayor defends the officers saying safety is paramount and pointing out that not all officers know the law.


Why wouldnt that go over well in the city? If there is a city ordinance then I can understand. What other side besides the legal side? It would be a violation of law and civil rights for a officer to stop and question me just for open carrying if it is legal.

What dont you understand about open carrying? I open carry daily every where I go. Let me guess. The bad guys will see my gun and shoot me first, right?

Deadman 94 xj
10-05-2010, 10:02 PM
Funny.

Bad guys? Do you get attention with a weapon on your hip? Maybe that's why you carry it in the first place? I never understood guys like you. If I'm carrying it isn't going to be out in the open for all to see. It's going to be a surprise when needed. The rest of your reply I wouldn't waste time on. I can pull a million different scenarios out of thin air. It doesn't change my argument.

jlovbasz3
10-05-2010, 10:07 PM
I think we are losing our rights because the average non-thinking, TV-addled American is happy to trade freedom for the illusion of security and because the ever-growing government needs to justify its existence.

Right on!

Mykal
10-05-2010, 10:13 PM
Funny.

Bad guys? Do you get attention with a weapon on your hip? Maybe that's why you carry it in the first place? I never understood guys like you. If I'm carrying it isn't going to be out in the open for all to see. It's going to be a surprise when needed. The rest of your reply I wouldn't waste time on. I can pull a million different scenarios out of thin air. It doesn't change my argument.


Honestly not much and when I do its always been positive. I actually had an incident while wheeling about a week ago where Im almost positive that having it in plain view at the ready stopped our group from being shot by the two men holding our group hostage for over 30 minutes while the officers were responding. That really isnt a joke either.

These are not out of thin air. These are recent events in the state of Pa. You said you couldnt imagine it happening. Its quite common actually.
I can respect that you think concealing is the better way to carry. I agree, in some situations but not many.
I wasnt trying to change your argument. Just showing you that it can and does happen more frequently then you imagine. Which is why you need to know your rights, if you dont know them then they are easily taken away.

Deadman 94 xj
10-05-2010, 10:16 PM
Ok, you're right. I can see where open carrying can be good in certain situations. I don't mean to get personal but your wiki article was a little insulting lol. Anyway, good points.

I'll admit I was poking the bear a little with that "rights" post anyway.

Mykal
10-05-2010, 10:24 PM
I wasnt trying to insult you. I figured it grouped most of the large ones together and if you were serious then it would at least give a few good examples.

The one major downfall of concealed carry in my eyes is that its only adavantageous when you are a third party and the aggressor is distracted enough for you to reach your weapon. In a one on one scenario with a bead on your chest, you are not going to get your weapon out fast enough.

Deadman 94 xj
10-05-2010, 10:33 PM
Ehh, true enough. I couldn't live with that amount of attention though. It's different everywhere I guess but I'd have people gawking at me from every direction around here. There are people that live their entire lives never carrying a firearm. Too each his own.

JeepSteeler
10-06-2010, 07:36 AM
As I've said before, open carry in the Pittsburgh suburbs would do nothing but waste a lot of your time explaining yourself to the security guard at Target (Wal Mart, Iggle, etc), dealing with alarmed/hysterical soccer moms, probably have the police called on you with some regularity. I don't think you would get in any type of trouble, it would just be a hassle. I have enough of those. It's not that it's wrong, it's just exceptionally uncommon in these areas and hence more attention.

Replace "open carry" in the paragraph above with "wear a hockey mask Jason style" and the same applies, it's uncommon and that's the key.

I open carry all the time in rural areas I frequent. Those folks are used to it. No problems. Mykal I'm not sure where you are so maybe it's a less populated area? People are used to it there?

Dick.Breakey
10-06-2010, 07:46 AM
mykal loves the bfe areas I'm sure. And especially when he's wheelin. Definitely not cas like where your 18ft from a street. (yes, cas people, I'm exaggerating so don't flip out). When I wheel down in the areas like that this winter, I'll have mine with me. Granted it's a shotty, but it will be loaded and within reach

Super Scout
10-06-2010, 08:06 AM
This topic cant be covered with a blanket a statement, I think we all know that there are advatages for both. We need a polite society where it is presumed that everyone has a gun, like in the 20s my old man was just on the soap box about that last nite.

Ragnorox
10-06-2010, 08:14 AM
God damn! Dick it is not a shotty it's a fawkin shotgun! and only dumb ass wheels with a loaded shotgun in the vehicle and Casparis can be a lot me dangerous than you think especially if you go around calling your jeep a whip and you scatter gun a shotty http://www.pgh-offroad.com/forum/images/smilies/098.gif

Ragnorox
10-06-2010, 08:16 AM
This topic cant be covered with a blanket a statement, I think we all know that there are advatages for both. We need a polite society where it is presumed that everyone has a gun, like in the 20s my old man was just on the soap box about that last nite.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein

EddyB
10-06-2010, 08:49 AM
God damn! Dick it is not a shotty it's a fawkin shotgun! and only dumb ass wheels with a loaded shotgun in the vehicle and Casparis can be a lot me dangerous than you think especially if you go around calling your jeep a whip and you scatter gun a shotty :overkill:


Isn't that what Giblets calls it?

Dick.Breakey
10-06-2010, 08:57 AM
God damn! Dick it is not a shotty it's a fawkin shotgun! and only dumb ass wheels with a loaded shotgun in the vehicle and Casparis can be a lot me dangerous than you think especially if you go around calling your jeep a whip and you scatter gun a shotty :overkill:

ill call it whatever i damn well please. and i wouldnt do that in Cas. i mean in bfe WV where i know im nowhere near the nearest town. and again, if in bfe, ill do my best to make sure im protected.


Isn't that what Giblets calls it?

giblets can eat shit. again, ill call it whatever the fu*k i want to

Aran
10-06-2010, 09:27 AM
I open carry through Pittsburgh and the surrounding region all the time with no issue. Not even funny looks, as far as I've noticed. And I pay attention to everyone around me.

Mykal
10-06-2010, 10:46 AM
As I've said before, open carry in the Pittsburgh suburbs would do nothing but waste a lot of your time explaining yourself to the security guard at Target (Wal Mart, Iggle, etc), dealing with alarmed/hysterical soccer moms, probably have the police called on you with some regularity. I don't think you would get in any type of trouble, it would just be a hassle. I have enough of those. It's not that it's wrong, it's just exceptionally uncommon in these areas and hence more attention.

Replace "open carry" in the paragraph above with "wear a hockey mask Jason style" and the same applies, it's uncommon and that's the key.

I open carry all the time in rural areas I frequent. Those folks are used to it. No problems. Mykal I'm not sure where you are so maybe it's a less populated area? People are used to it there?

I live in Morgantown, WV. Its not common to see a person open carry here. It is less populated then Pittsburgh though. I wouldnt hesitate to open carry in Pittsburgh though as long as its legal. Half of the responsibility of open carrying a hand gun is to educate those that are alarmed or think its illegal to do so. OpenCarry.org has a nice PA gun law rights pamphlet (http://paopencarry.org/pdfs/Pennsylvania_Gun_Rights.pdf) you can hand out if you are approached.



mykal loves the bfe areas I'm sure. And especially when he's wheelin. Definitely not cas like where your 18ft from a street. (yes, cas people, I'm exaggerating so don't flip out). When I wheel down in the areas like that this winter, I'll have mine with me. Granted it's a shotty, but it will be loaded and within reach

You have obviously never been on the trails with me. Trails in West Virginia are normally County roads that are not maintained anymore. While legal to be on sometimes the surrounding land owners do not agree. So while your in BFE you may run right beside or through someones property and have every legal right to be there. As was the case a two weeks ago in our situation.
Im not sure about PA but in WV its illegal to carry a loaded shotgun in the vehicle. So if you ever visit WV to ride with me, unload it or stay at home.


I open carry through Pittsburgh and the surrounding region all the time with no issue. Not even funny looks, as far as I've noticed. And I pay attention to everyone around me.

I believe that. Most people are so busy in their day to day lives that they do not notice or do not care. I was pretty apprehensive the first few times I open carried around Morgantown thinking that everyone was going to be staring at me and gawking. I was wrong.

ridgerunner97
10-06-2010, 10:59 AM
Pa is the same as far as I know you can't carry a loaded long gun in the vehicle. I regularly have a long gun in the vehicle year round, normally a shotgun, either laying in the backseat or propped in the pass. seat muzzle down in the floorboard leaning against the tunnel. I got pulled over with it in the pass. seat one time because I had failed to signal a turn and crossed the yellow line supposedly. Officer didn't say two words to me except is it loaded, I said no SIR, and he saw the action was open, he said good enough. Wound up gettin a warning. I'd do some research Dick before you just start toting you "shotty" :120: around like Billy Bad Ass :075:

Dick.Breakey
10-06-2010, 11:01 AM
You have obviously never been on the trails with me. Trails in West Virginia are normally County roads that are not maintained anymore. While legal to be on sometimes the surrounding land owners do not agree. So while your in BFE you may run right beside or through someones property and have every legal right to be there. As was the case a two weeks ago in our situation.




the trails/area id be on is someone i knows property. so while i would be on that property, which is where id spend most of my time, i would keep it on me and loaded. if i was going somewhere else with someone, such as yourself, id for sure ask about it cause theres normally someone else who is carrying. mine wouuld only be pulled out in an extreme emergency anyways.

how far are you from Elkins?

Dick.Breakey
10-06-2010, 11:04 AM
I'd do some research Dick before you just start toting you "shotty" :120: around like Billy Bad Ass :075:

while traveling, i havent and wouldnt carry it loaded. that would be a very dumb thing to do. the place that you know where im talking about, i will.

dont mistake my seriousness for protecting myself and those around me when in the middle of nowhere for stupidity on the street.

annnnnnnndd....... SHOTTY SHOTTY SHOTTY SHOTTY.

JeepSteeler
10-06-2010, 11:26 AM
I open carry through Pittsburgh and the surrounding region all the time with no issue. Not even funny looks, as far as I've noticed. And I pay attention to everyone around me.

More power to you. I've tried an found the opposite. Maybe I look more like a troublemaker, lol. I once was going into Target after work, went to hit the john right inside the store. This lady and her son were over by the mens room door an he was about to go in when they saw me. She freaking said out loud to him "no honey, don't go in there here comes a scary man".....Damn...i'm not George Cloony but scary?

Anyway, some good thoughts on here from everyone. Good to discuss stuff like this IMHO.

Super Scout
10-06-2010, 11:51 AM
Good link Mykal, and just for clarification you can carry a loaded gun in your car as long as it is a handgun and you have a concealed carry permit.

ridgerunner97
10-06-2010, 11:59 AM
correct, hence my statement LONG GUN :)

Ragnorox
10-06-2010, 01:05 PM
During hunting season it is illegal to carry a loaded weapon in your vehicle that can considered a "Sporting Gun". Also illegal to lean said "Sporting Gun" against your vehicle.....Ask me how I know! FTW

mangotango
10-06-2010, 02:08 PM
It is ALWAYS illegal to transport a loaded long gun in a vehicle in Pa. Always, always, always.
And, yep, lean that loaded "shotty" against your car and be prepared to pay a fine.

Actually, lean it against a fence, tree, wall or anything else and be prepared to pay fine.

Super Scout
10-06-2010, 02:55 PM
I said it once and I will say it again IT IS NOT AGAINST THE LAW TO TRANSPORT A LOADED HANDGUN IN PA IF YOU HAVE A LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED. Long gun yes but not a hand gun.

Wiley-X
10-06-2010, 04:07 PM
Far too many people have had bad experiences with the police for me to willingly volunteer information that I'm carrying a gun.

In theory, the most that cop should do is LOOK at the license and say, "Yep, it's valid." In reality, they take your gun "for your safety," unload it, field strip it, call to make sure that it isn't stolen, check if it is "registered" (Pennsylvania doesn't have registration but that doesn't stop the police), check the validity of your license to carry and generally take up an hour of your time. If that's all that's happened, you've just wasted some time and had some gorilla who doesn't know squat about guns, manipulating your pistol and possibly damaging it. If the cop is in a really good mood, he'll decide that your gun isn't "registered" and confiscate it and your license to carry. Now you need to get a lawyer and sue the police to get your property back, if you can prove that they have it since the cop likely refused to give you a receipt.

Twenty years ago, I had cops make my life interesting for an hour because I was carrying. A Lt. at the Sheriff's office later told me that the cops had violated law, rules and procedures and that I should sue. However, I was a college student at the time and just let it slide.

A friend had his $10,000 custom built target rifle confiscated by the police during a traffic stop and when he got it back, the front sight was missing and the rear sight was broken.

I've had cops tell me, "If I see that you have a gun, I'm going to make your life hell." Why? What makes cops want to go on a power trip?

Aran
10-06-2010, 04:08 PM
i said it once and i will say it again it is not against the law to transport a loaded handgun in pa if you have a license to carry concealed. Long gun yes but not a hand gun.

I checked to be sure but NOBODY DISAGREED WITH YOU OR CALLED IT INTO QUESTION

DMG
10-06-2010, 05:07 PM
I've had cops tell me, "If I see that you have a gun, I'm going to make your life hell." Why? What makes cops want to go on a power trip?

Some cops view the badge and gun as the sources of their power. If we, as citizens are armed then we are equal and they don't like that. Similar reasoning to why Nancy Pelosi and other useless .gov lifers want us disarmed.

Ragnorox
10-06-2010, 06:00 PM
I said it once and I will say it again IT IS NOT AGAINST THE LAW TO TRANSPORT A LOADED HANDGUN IN PA IF YOU HAVE A LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED. Long gun yes but not a hand gun.

The exception to to that rule, Steve if it is a sporting hand gun (grey area defined, .357 super red hawk with a scope or red dot or something similar) and you are a licensed hunter with your tags with you. At that point and time it IS illegal to have said weapon loaded......Again, ask me how I know FTW!

Sleeper
10-06-2010, 07:02 PM
I think most of you need to visit PAFOA.ORG. Some of the things i have read in this thread is rediculous. I beleive if you are going to carry you should know the law and your rights and if you dont you have no bussiness carrying in the first place. As far as a "CCW'' goes we in PA do not have one, it is a "LTCF". If you are being pulled over 9/10 times you do not let the leo know if you are a lawfully licensed individual. There are many many cases of which people being pulled over have ended in bad news with the m disclosing that info, esp if the officer is untrained with dealing with the situation, young egotistical cop, leo whom of which is NOT used to your type of weopon you are carrying and accidently fires it etc etc......

EddyB
10-06-2010, 07:14 PM
I think CCW is referring to concealed carry weapon. Where most people screw up is by calling it a "permit".

Dick.Breakey
10-06-2010, 07:28 PM
probably. in Texas its called a CHL. "Concealed Handgun License"

renegade16
10-06-2010, 09:50 PM
As a law enforcement officer I agree jlovbas3 100%....A lot of my civilian buddies, as well as my family carry concealed, and i advise them that if they get pulled over while carrying to hand the officer their concealed carry permit with their driver's liscense and to keep their hands on the steering wheel and then let the officer ask them if they are armed. then i tell them to state that they are and let the officer know where it is on their body or in the vehicle....do not reach for it. this is to keep all parties safe. it is not officers being jumpy or being under trained. people forget that men in women in law enforcement get murdered for no other reason than having a badge. this is a risk of the job and by most it is known and accepted. however, just because it is a risk of the job doesnt mean that we just lay down and let ourselves be killed. someone mentioned about their weapon being ran to see if it is stolen, this may have been the case, but also it is ran to see who the owner is and if you are not the owner to see if you do have permission to be in possession of that weapon. i do realize that there are people in my profession who are not the most professional. and if you had what you feel was some kind of negative encounter with the police, well you do have the right to your opinion. when it comes to guns, however, we take every percaution so that everyone walks away safely. i am a staunch supporter of our constitution and i believe that everyone has the right to "bear arms", but it should be done with a little bit of common sense. also, because we do currently have the right to carry a concealed firearm here in the commonwealth, most people are eligible to apply....even bad guys. so just because someone has a permit doesn’t mean that they are not going to try and kill me. the truth of the matter is that there is no "profile" for a potential cop killer. it could be the "gang banger" looking person or it could be the 77 y/o woman and everyone else in between. sorry for the rant and jumping all over the place, but i take this subject very seriously. i have seen people who think they know what they are doing with their firearms, both civilian and cops, and they have no clue. i have also seen too many cops shot in the line of duty....some killed some seriously injured, including myself, in my short career. again sorry for the rant and i hope that you can learn something from all the above.

renegade16
10-06-2010, 09:54 PM
Rights... Heres a quick rundown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_and_political_rights) Those are a small portion. There are way to many to list, seriously.

As far as having your weapon taken.
Heres a case (http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/107298-negative-encounter-ppd-afternoon-schooled-sgt-39th.html) in Philadelphia with Audio (http://www.supload.com/sound_confirm.php?get=1048603982.wma) that the man recorded.

Here is a story (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?80244-%E2%80%9COfficers%E2%80%99-safety-comes-first-and-not-infringing-on-people%E2%80%99s-rights-comes-second%E2%80%9D) about nine men arrested for weapons possesion. All of whom had valid concealed carry permits. Then the Mayor defends the officers saying safety is paramount and pointing out that not all officers know the law.


Why wouldnt that go over well in the city? If there is a city ordinance then I can understand. What other side besides the legal side? It would be a violation of law and civil rights for a officer to stop and question me just for open carrying if it is legal.

What dont you understand about open carrying? I open carry daily every where I go. Let me guess. The bad guys will see my gun and shoot me first, right?

No one can carry a concealed firearm in the city of philidelphia....even the off duty cops

EddyB
10-06-2010, 10:09 PM
The point is that as a law abiding citizen I shouldn't have to do things that I am not required to do. Which I'm not, so I won't. If asked I will tell the truth.

I don't know the actual numbers , but the percentage of firearm related crimes committed by LTCF holders is minuscule. A criminal carrying an illegal firearm is most likely going to lie when asked, hoping the vehicle is not searched. So why should I risk getting that low percentage cop who doesn't know the law, is jumpy, feels like detaining me so he can check to see if my firearm is legit?

As far as agreeing with jlov, first of all he copied and pasted that from some article as far as I can tell. Secondly his only response in four pages was to agree with someone who did not agree with his first post. I'm just as guilty as everybody else posting in this thread, Don't feed the trolls.







One thing I am a big supporter of is capital letters and paragraphs. They make your post sooooooo much easier to read.

EddyB
10-06-2010, 10:13 PM
No one can carry a concealed firearm in the city of Philadelphia....even the off duty cops

If you actually read the thread that was linked, the OP was open carrying, which is perfectly legal in Philly as long as you have your LTCF.

If you read further into the post the officer told the OP that CC was legal in Philly.

So I think my point about not all police officers not knowing gun laws in Pa has been made.

renegade16
10-06-2010, 10:55 PM
If you actually read the thread that was linked, the OP was open carrying, which is perfectly legal in Philly as long as you have your LTCF.

If you read further into the post the officer told the OP that CC was legal in Philly.

So I think my point about not all police officers not knowing gun laws in Pa has been made.


I stand corrected on this issue....and i admit that i was wrong as far as the CC in philly. some might expect a smart ass reply and do a little bit of the forum tough guy act, but that's not why i'm here. So i'll leave it with me being wrong on the cc in philly thing and leave it at that.

Ragnorox
10-06-2010, 11:13 PM
I stand corrected on this issue....and i admit that i was wrong as far as the CC in philly. some might expect a smart ass reply and do a little bit of the forum tough guy act, but that's not why i'm here. So i'll leave it with me being wrong on the cc in philly thing and leave it at that.
^Bravo

Deadman 94 xj
10-06-2010, 11:25 PM
As a law enforcement officer I agree jlovbas3 100%....A lot of my civilian buddies, as well as my family carry concealed, and i advise them that if they get pulled over while carrying to hand the officer their concealed carry permit with their driver's liscense and to keep their hands on the steering wheel and then let the officer ask them if they are armed. then i tell them to state that they are and let the officer know where it is on their body or in the vehicle....do not reach for it. this is to keep all parties safe. it is not officers being jumpy or being under trained. people forget that men in women in law enforcement get murdered for no other reason than having a badge. this is a risk of the job and by most it is known and accepted. however, just because it is a risk of the job doesnt mean that we just lay down and let ourselves be killed. someone mentioned about their weapon being ran to see if it is stolen, this may have been the case, but also it is ran to see who the owner is and if you are not the owner to see if you do have permission to be in possession of that weapon. i do realize that there are people in my profession who are not the most professional. and if you had what you feel was some kind of negative encounter with the police, well you do have the right to your opinion. when it comes to guns, however, we take every percaution so that everyone walks away safely. i am a staunch supporter of our constitution and i believe that everyone has the right to "bear arms", but it should be done with a little bit of common sense. also, because we do currently have the right to carry a concealed firearm here in the commonwealth, most people are eligible to apply....even bad guys. so just because someone has a permit doesn’t mean that they are not going to try and kill me. the truth of the matter is that there is no "profile" for a potential cop killer. it could be the "gang banger" looking person or it could be the 77 y/o woman and everyone else in between. sorry for the rant and jumping all over the place, but i take this subject very seriously. i have seen people who think they know what they are doing with their firearms, both civilian and cops, and they have no clue. i have also seen too many cops shot in the line of duty....some killed some seriously injured, including myself, in my short career. again sorry for the rant and i hope that you can learn something from all the above.

Great post. I can see where Ed is comming from too, but it's just like I said earlier. Unfortunately the world caters to stupid people. Criminals to be exact. It is what it is. I don't cry like a baby evertime I get carded for skoal when I'm clearly of age or when the lady at the gas station wants to see my ID to check to make sure the credit card I'm using is mine. This isn't pleasantville we live in. Just watch the 11 o'clock news.

I agree with the opinion that everyone should know their rights but I also think there are a few different view points here on where the line should be drawn. Harrassment is clearly over the line but I think people have different thresholds for what exactly constitutes harassment.

jlovbasz3
10-06-2010, 11:31 PM
[QUOTE=EddyB;227784] As far as agreeing with jlov, first of all he copied and pasted that from some article as far as I can tell. Secondly his only response in four pages was to agree with someone who did not agree with his first post.


Yes I did copy and paste the article not that I agree or disagree with it. I thought some people would find it interesting and offer some insight.And yes I do agree with what DMG said because it's the truth.

DMG
10-07-2010, 12:20 AM
I stand corrected on this issue....and i admit that i was wrong as far as the CC in philly. some might expect a smart ass reply and do a little bit of the forum tough guy act, but that's not why i'm here. So i'll leave it with me being wrong on the cc in philly thing and leave it at that.


You seem to be a good guy so I would have no problem informing you if i was carrying.
Unfortunately in much the same way as you have to protect yourself against some people, we have to protect ourselves against people in your profession who don't care for armed citizens. And since the law states specifically that we don't have to inform you that we are armed, I think it makes sense to say as little as possible.

EddyB
10-07-2010, 01:20 AM
[QUOTE=EddyB;227784] As far as agreeing with jlov, first of all he copied and pasted that from some article as far as I can tell. Secondly his only response in four pages was to agree with someone who did not agree with his first post.


Yes I did copy and paste the article not that I agree or disagree with it. I thought some people would find it interesting and offer some insight.And yes I do agree with what DMG said because it's the truth.

When you copy and paste an article and offer no insight of your own most people, as I did will assume that you are advocating what the article says. I apologize if I put you in that category.

Aran
10-07-2010, 02:49 AM
I agree with the opinion that everyone should know their rights but I also think there are a few different view points here on where the line should be drawn. Harrassment is clearly over the line but I think people have different thresholds for what exactly constitutes harassment.

My line is "When the officer believes it matters that I'm carrying, despite whatever interaction I'm involved with said officer having nothing to do with a crime involving my firearm." Simple as that. If I'm being pulled over, it has nothing to do with my carrying, deal with the traffic stop. If you've stopped me because you see I'm open carrying, you are harassing me as the courts and MPOETC have already told you it's not illegal to do so, nor is it RAS/PC to stop me based on me open carrying.

Unless I have done something wrong with my firearm, and I guarantee you at no point have I ever, it should never come up beyond "Hey is that a ____? Cool I have a _____ at home, what kind of holster is that?" or any other friendly conversation. I like guns, I will discuss guns if you bring them up conversationally, especially if you know something I don't and are willing to share that information with me. Once it goes beyond that, again, that is harassment, and the courts agree with me, not the officer.

95wrangler4life
10-07-2010, 03:05 AM
So, yes I'm a Noob to this forum, but have been CCW in PA for 5 years. In PA this is a "LICENSE TO CARRY FIREARMS" card. I, for years have worked closly with law enforecment both local and PSP, I know quite a few officers by 1st name basis, even when I have been pulled over (hence not having a ticket in the past 5 years). Usually, when carrying, if I am stopped I hand the officer my License, Registration, Insurance like normal, most times my pistol is very concealed even for a Sigma 40, but having a few extra pounds always helps, so if this is the case, i say nothing. If it has the posibility of being seen, I will hand them my Firearm License with my information and follow suite, but I can attest, there are some shit poor trained officers out there with no clue for the laws but most quickly learn when i call their CO after completion of the stop or incident. As I stated I work closely with them, not only on FD/EMS matters, but on a response team with them.

I have a few stories I will share:

When coming home from Latrobe one evening, I noticed a state unit behind me (no lights but very close) and i moved over into the slow lane thinking it was another trooper abusing his power (ya know, speeding and lights to get to the fast food place, I have personally witnessed a officer leave wendy's at Home Depot, get to the light at Toll 66, realize his food was wrong, turn lights and siren and haul ass back and pull infront of me to get them to fix his order, his CO was quite pissed I will get to this in a minute). The state unit pulled behind me and at about the crossroads, another unit pulled up along side him and a 3rd unit behind him, I got lit up, and pulled to the side. The police ordered me out at gun point, out, ground, face on the ground in the dirt, cuffed and searched, they asked if I had any weapons and i advised them there was one on my side that i was licensed to carry. The officers then, while i was cuffed and face down in the gravel on Rt. 30 told me if i moved they would blow my freaking head off, and took my weapon and stuffed me in the back of the cruiser (remember this part) . They then turned around and mountain view and headed back towards latrobe, asked why i was being arrested and was told i was being detained and taken back to the scene for a Possitive ID, I told the arrogant a$$hat that was fine, (i say a$$hat because I have no time to get into his BS he was giving me). Well we get back to the gas station, Sheetz in Latrobe, and guess what, everyone there that they asked to ID me said I was not the person. Well, the on duty OIC came over to the car, explained better what had happened and got me out of the car and uncuffed me, and continued to tell me and show me what was up, a car, same color as mine and same make and model (he showed me the security tape), had robbed them and threatened to have a gun a short time before hand. The OIC even bought me a drink and then took me to his car to take me to my vehicle. I stopped him and raised my pant leg (revealing my 2nd weapon) and told him the officers took my primary and never searched me beyond taking my primary. He was furious, not with me, but with his officers. On our way back to my vehicle I explained the entire incident in detail, I then followed him back to the barrack to file a report, at which time he suspended the 2 troopers on the spot.

2nd incident, I'm in walmart in GBG, shopping, I have my pistol where I believed it wasn't visable, like I normally do under my job shirt. I do my shopping and am checking out, when I go to pay for it, I reached in my back pocket to get my wallet, and must have made some part of my pistol visable. Just so happens, some off duty johnny law a$$clown was behind me in line, caught a glimpse of my pistol and drew on me, never identifying himself, and ordered me to the ground. Wrong... I drew on him after the split second of realizing he did not have a magazine in his baretta. In walmart there was a Trooper who was shopping while he was suppose to be patrolling, who came over, ordered us both to the ground. After some discussion afterwards we were both released. I, went to his Chief's house and explained the situation that had taken place, this individual no longer works in Westmoreland, Alleghney or Armstrong counties. And, to be 100% truthful, I was never so close to shooting someone even after the trooper had interviened and the situation was over, in my life.

3rd incident; Traffic stop, beaver county, state trooper, speeding... I gave him my license, reg, insurance and Firearm License, he looks at my license, then my insurance then my firearm license, his reply "Sir, are you armed?" My reply "Yes sir, I am carrying, right hip" his reply "(Gun draws) Get your f**ing hands on your head (they were on the steering wheel), (radio's for backup with a "ARMED DRIVER AT GUNPOINT")" and then stands there for 5 minutes waiting for his backup with me at gun point. Let me tell ya, this was the longest 5 minutes or so of my life and by far the most stressful thing and I run in burning buildings for the hell of it. His backup arrives, they get me out of the car, disarm me, field strip my weapon and cuff me and place me on the hood of their car. The backup officer asks the original officer what I did to go gun point. The officer tells him, "He gave me his Firearms License, I asked him if he was armed, he said yes!" The backup officer then walks away and makes a phone call, the original officer starts searching my car, the backup officer comes back, walks up to me says "I'm sorry" uncuffs me, allows me to reseat my weapon, stops the officer's search and I was on my way.


I have worked closely with some GREAT OFFICERS, but moreso then not, I see officers without a clue, with a gun and badge and power trip. They shouldnt be allowed to breath let alone be officers.

And the officer I mentioned about the Wendy's incident, I caught it on tape via "Drive Cam" and when I showed his CO the drivecam, he was fired.

Another way officers abuse their power, they must obide by state laws and vehicle codes and such too, yet, we see officers speeding down highways, tailgating, etc... well, WHY? They never have their lights on, which if they are responding to a emergency they MUST DO BY STATE LAW, ever follow them? I do quite often, most times they dont even notice, they go home, food, gas stations etc, very few been goin to call. I have been pulled over by quite a few for following them, but when they see the video things, or when they realize who I am cause as they are doing it, or as they are pulling me over, I am on the phone with their CO's, they hate that.

DONT TELL THE COPS SHIT UNLESS ASKED!

Aran
10-07-2010, 05:17 AM
Even then, only tell them legally required information, if any.

Deadman 94 xj
10-07-2010, 09:45 AM
My line is "When the officer believes it matters that I'm carrying, despite whatever interaction I'm involved with said officer having nothing to do with a crime involving my firearm." Simple as that. If I'm being pulled over, it has nothing to do with my carrying, deal with the traffic stop. If you've stopped me because you see I'm open carrying, you are harassing me as the courts and MPOETC have already told you it's not illegal to do so, nor is it RAS/PC to stop me based on me open carrying.

Unless I have done something wrong with my firearm, and I guarantee you at no point have I ever, it should never come up beyond "Hey is that a ____? Cool I have a _____ at home, what kind of holster is that?" or any other friendly conversation. I like guns, I will discuss guns if you bring them up conversationally, especially if you know something I don't and are willing to share that information with me. Once it goes beyond that, again, that is harassment, and the courts agree with me, not the officer.


Good post.

jackb1
10-07-2010, 10:34 AM
2nd incident, I'm in walmart in GBG, shopping, I have my pistol where I believed it wasn't visable, like I normally do under my job shirt. I do my shopping and am checking out, when I go to pay for it, I reached in my back pocket to get my wallet, and must have made some part of my pistol visable. Just so happens, some off duty johnny law a$$clown was behind me in line, caught a glimpse of my pistol and drew on me, never identifying himself, and ordered me to the ground. Wrong... I drew on him after the split second of realizing he did not have a magazine in his baretta. In walmart there was a Trooper who was shopping while he was suppose to be patrolling, who came over, ordered us both to the ground. After some discussion afterwards we were both released. I, went to his Chief's house and explained the situation that had taken place, this individual no longer works in Westmoreland, Alleghney or Armstrong counties. And, to be 100% truthful, I was never so close to shooting someone even after the trooper had interviened and the situation was over, in my life.



So after you verified that the weapon was unloaded and safe, you then drew on the guy? Brandish much? Then again, even without a magazine, how did you know there wasn't 1 in the chamber when you decided to draw? So there is a guy at point blank aimed at you, yet you draw? Either way, BS story or stupid decision. IMHO, anything else you wrote is worthless because you clearly make bad decisions or make up stories.

HoodRN
10-07-2010, 11:55 AM
So after you verified that the weapon was unloaded and safe, you then drew on the guy? Brandish much? Then again, even without a magazine, how did you know there wasn't 1 in the chamber when you decided to draw? So there is a guy at point blank aimed at you, yet you draw? Either way, BS story or stupid decision. IMHO, anything else you wrote is worthless because you clearly make bad decisions or make up stories.

He left out the part where he kicked the sh*t out of Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal, and Arnold Schwarzenegger. Probably too modest to post that. Thank heavens he is out there protecting all of us from the State Police :)

Super Scout
10-07-2010, 12:34 PM
I once karate chopped Mr. T when he drew on me. I gave him something to pity.

HoodRN
10-07-2010, 12:59 PM
I once karate chopped Mr. T when he drew on me. I gave him something to pity.

Did you have the magazine in your "Baretta?" :067:

Mykal
10-07-2010, 01:27 PM
Words. Lots of words.

http://www.gifanatics.com/files/cool%20story%20bro.gif

Super Scout
10-07-2010, 01:43 PM
Where are these newbs coming from anywhere ? Not that I mind it just seems really weird that all these new guys are popping up and going nuts on this thread.

jlovbasz3
10-07-2010, 02:56 PM
[QUOTE=jlovbasz3;227800]

When you copy and paste an article and offer no insight of your own most people, as I did will assume that you are advocating what the article says. I apologize if I put you in that category.

No problem,I guess I should have stated how I felt about it to begin with.

Aran
10-07-2010, 03:27 PM
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-carry-145/113280-i-wish-i-better-expressing-myself-keyboard.html

Deadman 94 xj
10-07-2010, 03:49 PM
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-carry-145/113280-i-wish-i-better-expressing-myself-keyboard.html


Haha. Nice. Not a lot of replies in that there thead....

Dragonslayer
10-07-2010, 05:36 PM
Where is Dave when you need him? LMAO

95wrangler4life
10-07-2010, 07:58 PM
Yeah your right its just stories, nice of people to call someone a liar when they know nothing about the person but i love my typical western PA attitude, gosh i missed it

renegade16
10-07-2010, 08:15 PM
So after you verified that the weapon was unloaded and safe, you then drew on the guy? Brandish much? Then again, even without a magazine, how did you know there wasn't 1 in the chamber when you decided to draw? So there is a guy at point blank aimed at you, yet you draw? Either way, BS story or stupid decision. IMHO, anything else you wrote is worthless because you clearly make bad decisions or make up stories.

I agree with the b.s. story. If someone pulls a gun on me, my first reaction is to draw mine as i move out of his line of fire and shot before he does. also this guy sure has had alot of state troopers fired....funny thing about civil service is that its not that easy to fire someone. just my .02

Sleeper
10-07-2010, 08:33 PM
The only reason he knows his shit is from PAFOA.ORG, if even some of you people including renegade of whom is an officer look into this sight there would not be this thread. Hell half of you do not even know what HB40 is....... if you have firearms you should know this stuff, if you dont know this shit then you should not have a firearm....

Dick.Breakey
10-07-2010, 08:40 PM
Hell half of you do not even know what HB40 is....... if you have firearms you should know this stuff, if you dont know this shit then you should not have a firearm....


I sent my email saying i supported it. glad its moving along

Sleeper
10-07-2010, 09:05 PM
I sent my email saying i supported it. glad its moving alongThanks Dick, which rep did you send it to?

HoodRN
10-07-2010, 10:23 PM
Yeah your right its just stories, nice of people to call someone a liar when they know nothing about the person but i love my typical western PA attitude, gosh i missed it

Liar is a strong term. I was thinking more along the lines of...toolbag :)

Dick.Breakey
10-08-2010, 07:44 AM
Thanks Dick, which rep did you send it to?


to be honest i dont remember. it was right after i learned of HB40. i dont believe it was a democrat though haha

ezman
10-08-2010, 09:51 PM
i'm sorry but the whole "why hide it if it's legal" thing is bull... you are doing anything illegal when you take a shower... so why not take it out so everyone can see it... just because an act is legal doesn't mean you have to display it to everyone.... just like alot of people have posted in here, use common sense.... know the law and your rights...

Aran
10-08-2010, 10:12 PM
Publicly showering is illegal in many places due to exposure of a naked body. Your argument is incorrect.

newyj
10-09-2010, 03:24 AM
I almost always have a weapon, and the first thing I do is inform the officer as I hand him my permit and other goodies. They do react differently, some are cool and just ask where it is and say don't reach for it, some ask that I take it out slowly and place it on the dash in plain sight, and again don't reach for it. I have never been harassed for having it, and have been let go many times, I think because of it. The phrase "officer I am legally armed" does wonders. just my two cents

DMG
10-09-2010, 11:05 AM
Concealed=concealed=keep it hidden=don't broadcast it to anyone, including cops. IMHO.