Talk about a fart in church...

[mangotango]

Gov. Corbett just got done with his budget speech. In addition to cutting education funding by almost a billion dollars, he's asking all employees of public schools and the state system of higher education to agree to across-the-board wage freezes.

Forgetting for a moment the thousands of tenured college profs who would have to agree to this, it would require all 501 public school districts in the state AND each of their local teachers' union bargaining units to agree to it since the state has no authority to mandate such a move.

Yeah, good luck with that, Tom.

Funny, I must have missed the part where he detailed all of the cuts to the governor's office budget.

[Wrecker]

He has less staff than the last guy. And in his last job he came up with enogh money by cutting down on corruption to run his office.

Just because you work for the Government, you should never have a wage freeze or "gasp" maybe give a little back? Sorry but I am glad he is doing the hard business of running anything. I am not happy about the eduacation cuts, but from what i understand, he just is making up for what the feds cut.

This size government cots this much. We dont bring in this much. Raise taxes or creating new taxes just takes it from my pocket the same. So why cant we take a logical look at what is really spent? Because no bodies wants to hurt their chances for election next time. Well if he starts out with cut everuthing, then the ones that have been running up the cost of governing will once come up with some places to cut.

[OverkillZJ]

A few of you know how pro public education I am, and that I come from a family of teacher's - that said I was also raised to understand that if they money isn't there, you can't spend it. That's a concept that is self-fixing in the private sector (go out of business, find a new job, etc) - but for some reason those in the public sector feel a right to be guranteed things that just aren't possible.

I know a lot of you don't agree, that's simply how I feel about it.

[MemorEsto]

I personally like how Corbett is slashing state debt. The guy knows what he's doing, that's why I voted for him.

[Super Scout]

Matt I agree with everything you said. Well put.

[limegreentj]

He has less staff than the last guy. And in his last job he came up with enogh money by cutting down on corruption to run his office.

Just because you work for the Government, you should never have a wage freeze or "gasp" maybe give a little back? Sorry but I am glad he is doing the hard business of running anything. I am not happy about the eduacation cuts, but from what i understand, he just is making up for what the feds cut.

This size government cots this much. We dont bring in this much. Raise taxes or creating new taxes just takes it from my pocket the same. So why cant we take a logical look at what is really spent? Because no bodies wants to hurt their chances for election next time. Well if he starts out with cut everuthing, then the ones that have been running up the cost of governing will once come up with some places to cut.


you shouldn't be....lol

[mangotango]

The purpose of my post was to point out the hilarity of Corbett's call for the wage freezes. That has a snowball's chance in hell of becoming reality in this state. Does anyone actually believe the teachers' unions -- 501 of 'em -- would go for that? What a joke.

That said, if you really want to cut government spending, then you have to cut government itself. There are a slew of things I'd like to see cut before education -- all directly relating to the actual cost of governing this state. Now, will that add up to the amount we need to cut? Of course not. But I, for one, would be able to stomach education cuts a lot better if I first saw the politicians cutting into their own wallets as well.

[HoodRN]

Education? I recently spoke to a new grad (honors) of a nearby state university. In casual conversation with co-workers (regarding beach vacations), the new grad indicated that she wasn't sure if North Carolina was on the east or west coast. If this is what we are paying so dearly for, cut it. All of it.

[ezman]

i don't see anything wrong with our education system in america


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww&feature=player_detailpage

[Wrecker]

you shouldn't be....lol
Go give your sore throat another protien bath.

[limegreentj]

lol

[SirFuego]

The thing that pisses me off about the people bitching and complaining about paycuts/freezes to teachers is that those same people never propose an alternate solution to accomplish the same end goal. If what the governor is proposing is such a horrible idea -- speak up and tell him how else to solve the problem. "Cut money somewhere else" doesn't cut it as an alternate solution either...

Yes, it's an unfortunate situation, but money needs to be cut somewhere.

[MemorEsto]

mangotango, your contradicting jibber jabber is as clear as Miss South Carolina's.

[JeepSteeler]

Our State Legislature is about 3 times larger than it needs to be. Start cutting the fat right there, there is plenty of it.

I'm ok with public sector employees taking the pay freeze. A lot of the cuts in recent years have been by attrition, just not backfilling positions when boomers retire. I'm also a fan of the merit pay system, rather than getting a raise every year just because you managed to not get fired.

The salaries of the State University President's are outragous as well. I understand they need to recruit top talent to run the schools effectively, but all of them and the chancellors pulling in $200k+ a year plus housing, vehicles, and benefits, is a little too much.

[ridgerunner97]

^ Well said.

[Muzikman]

I don't care what happens to the State colleges and universities. They can hire who ever they want and they can pay them whatever they want. Yes they get money from the state to help keep tuition prices down, but they have that extra revenue to sustain them. It's not as if State schools are really that cheap any way. If you are poor and can't afford college, there are loans, scholarships and grants. There is also Community Colleges.

As for the public schools. I could understand people being up in arms if these public schools actually used this money to teach kids.

We'll use Penn Hills as an example. 10 years ago they could not afford books for all the students. Around that same time they created a state of the art indoor athletic center and rebuilt the football field and track. Now, they still have no money and they want to rip down a perfectly good High School (which they did pretty extensive renovations on recently) to build a new school. I am all for art, music and athletics in school, I do not think any of those things should be cut, however, I do think that the #1 priority should be education and if there is not enough money to teach, you should not get luxuries like state of the art athletic facilities or brand new schools. These schools can obviously afford these cuts from the state.

[ezman]

with all kidding aside, it's not the faculty who has the most fat to trim in the education system. it's the administration. most are just as corrupt and double slotted in jobs as many politicians.

the majority of what you hear about teachers being greedy and wanting too much money is usually just some spin the admin put on things. they do things like that so the public doesn't realize how over staffed, how much money and all the benefits they get.

the state universities are the worst with this. i don't know about right now, but a few years ago when i was at edinboro university (a state school) the teachers were going to go on strike. so i looked into it and went to all the "town hall" informative meetings. that's where i found out that most private schools (like Penn State) get more money from the state than the actual state schools do

[SirFuego]

Our State Legislature is about 3 times larger than it needs to be. Start cutting the fat right there, there is plenty of it.
I bet even if you cut the state legislature to 1/3 of it's current size, that won't even make a dent in the state budget. I agree that every dollar counts, but also, the smaller you make the legislature, the more corrupt, in theory, it can get.

That's the same reason I have to laugh at NY Gov Cuomo's proposal to cut superintendent salaries. When he was running for gov of NY last year, I never thought that he had the balls to make any significant spending cuts because he'd be too concerned about his reputation. Cutting superintendent salaries, from a political perspective, sounds like a great move because it affects fewer people. But BECAUSE it affects fewer people, is it really going to affect anything? Sure cutting someone's salary in half might save a school district $100k, but really -- how much is that going to impact the district's budget? That's probably the equivalent of what? Cutting/freezing the salaries of 10 teachers?

Now I agree that in reality, every dollar counts. So superintendents should be seeing the same (or worse) freezes/cuts the teachers see, but simply focusing on only the administration (to minimize the "political impact" of these decisions) isn't going to do much, IMO.



The salaries of the State University President's are outragous as well. I understand they need to recruit top talent to run the schools effectively, but all of them and the chancellors pulling in $200k+ a year plus housing, vehicles, and benefits, is a little too much.

That's a bit different because State University's have sources of income other than taxpayer dollars. And again, see my argument above. When you look at the overall budget, $100k is relatively insignificant -- and while it may be one piece fo the puzzle, that doesn't come anywhere near solving the entire puzzle.


If you are poor and can't afford college, there are loans, scholarships and grants. There is also Community Colleges.
This is soo true. People undervalue and make fun of community colleges all the time. But to be honest -- they are a great "cheap" way to go to college. There are two extraordinarily intelligent and diligent people I work with -- and both of them went to community college for a couple years and were able to transfer most credits over to a 4 year school (UB). So basically, they graduated from a 4 year school, but didn't need to pay 4 year's worth of tuition at that school.



We'll use Penn Hills as an example. 10 years ago they could not afford books for all the students. Around that same time they created a state of the art indoor athletic center and rebuilt the football field and track. Now, they still have no money and they want to rip down a perfectly good High School (which they did pretty extensive renovations on recently) to build a new school. I am all for art, music and athletics in school, I do not think any of those things should be cut, however, I do think that the #1 priority should be education and if there is not enough money to teach, you should not get luxuries like state of the art athletic facilities or brand new schools. These schools can obviously afford these cuts from the state.

I'm not familiar with the circumstances behind what was built -- but was it funded by the school budget or through a private donor? Many times, private donors will stipulate exactly what the money was to be used for and will not allow the money to be spent elsewhere.

[Muzikman]

It was partly funded by Bill Fralic, but even at that, school money went into it. Money that they did not have. For the new High School, they are doing some goofy bond thing that I have not looked into as I can care less at this point.

[mangotango]

mangotango, your contradicting jibber jabber is as clear as Miss South Carolina's.

I don't think teachers' unions will go for a wage freeze. I think it's ridiculous that Corbett would even suggest it because he KNOWS they won't go for it. How is that contradicting myself?
I feel there is more to be cut from government itself. I know that won't make up for education budget cuts and I stated that. Again, where's the contradiction here?

Or are you just fishing for an argument?

[SirFuego]

The "problem" with athletics (especially football and basketball) is that they bring in a lot more revenue to the school than arts/music programs. As such, the athletic departments tend to get more of a royal treatment and feel entitled to that extra money they bring in. I sorta wish more school districts would view the major athletic programs as a way to bring in additional money to the entire school district -- and not just the athletic department.

[JeepSteeler]

Of course the cutting salaries of State Higher ed Administration wouldn't make a huge impact by itself, and they do have a revenue stream from the students and parents. But politically, it does have some weight with the current discourse on overpaid public sector employees. Yes students can get grants, loans, etc - but some of that is tax payer funded too, not only the actual tuition funds but admin overhead to manage the programs.

Again cutting the state legislature alone won't balance the budget, but there are hidden costs for each representative besides just the salaries - offices (rents, furniture, utilities), staffers, per diems, vehicle costs, expenses, overhead, and the pension/legacy costs associated with benefits that they get after they are out of office... etc. I would also argue that less reps would actually serve to decrease corruption as oversight would be spread less thin than it is now. Wouldn't get rid of corruption and never will, but I think there is an arguement there.

My overall point on both items is that streamlining, making small gains where we can by reducing controllable costs, when it is all put together could make a large difference. Rather than slash and burn major programs all together, nibble here, there, everywhere. It would also be more politically digestable to many voters and politicians...except for the downsizing of the legislature of course, they (politicians) would obviously fight tooth and nail on that one. Streamlining is harder to do than taking bigger chunks all at once, that's probably why it doesn't happen much.

[ezman]

/\ well said sir. i concur.

[HoodRN]

I don't think teachers' unions will go for a wage freeze. I think it's ridiculous that Corbett would even suggest it because he KNOWS they won't go for it. How is that contradicting myself?
I feel there is more to be cut from government itself. I know that won't make up for education budget cuts and I stated that. Again, where's the contradiction here?

Or are you just fishing for an argument?

Maybe they won't go for a wage freeze. Maybe the school boards across the state should stop holding a gun to the taxpayers heads every three years. They won't accept a wage freeze? Fire them. Reagan did it with the air traffic controllers...if I remember correctly, planes did not fall from the sky all over the United States.

[mangotango]

^^Ah, if were only that simple.

Actually, there are districts in other states doing just that -- furloughing ALL teachers and then picking and choosing which ones to hire back. I believe a New Jersey school district did that recently. Don't know what the outcome was, though.

[mangotango]

Of course the cutting salaries of State Higher ed Administration wouldn't make a huge impact by itself, and they do have a revenue stream from the students and parents. But politically, it does have some weight with the current discourse on overpaid public sector employees. Yes students can get grants, loans, etc - but some of that is tax payer funded too, not only the actual tuition funds but admin overhead to manage the programs.

Again cutting the state legislature alone won't balance the budget, but there are hidden costs for each representative besides just the salaries - offices (rents, furniture, utilities), staffers, per diems, vehicle costs, expenses, overhead, and the pension/legacy costs associated with benefits that they get after they are out of office... etc. I would also argue that less reps would actually serve to decrease corruption as oversight would be spread less thin than it is now. Wouldn't get rid of corruption and never will, but I think there is an arguement there.

My overall point on both items is that streamlining, making small gains where we can by reducing controllable costs, when it is all put together could make a large difference. Rather than slash and burn major programs all together, nibble here, there, everywhere. It would also be more politically digestable to many voters and politicians...except for the downsizing of the legislature of course, they (politicians) would obviously fight tooth and nail on that one. Streamlining is harder to do than taking bigger chunks all at once, that's probably why it doesn't happen much.

Agree with all of the above.
Example: In 1970, there were 1,430 legislative support staffers. That's for House and Senate.
Last year, there were 2,919 support staffers -- all getting paid. All getting health benefits. All qualifying for a state pension at some point.
A 104 percent increase in people who work solely for the Legislature, not any of the state government agencies that actually provide services to residents. "Cuz God forbid the people we elect should actually have to answer their own phones or write their own press releases -- or actually draft a piece of legislation.

[HoodRN]

^^Ah, if were only that simple.

Actually, there are districts in other states doing just that -- furloughing ALL teachers and then picking and choosing which ones to hire back. I believe a New Jersey school district did that recently. Don't know what the outcome was, though.

It IS that simple. One of the districts that did it was Providence, Rhode Island.

[ezman]

i don't think everyone should use the teachers for scapegoats in the education system gluttony. most of the fat is in the administration. sure there are things in the education system i don't agree with, like tenur for highschool/elementary teachers. but for the most part they just get shit on when the adimin keeps getting paid more, with more benefits and doing less

[HoodRN]

i don't think everyone should use the teachers for scapegoats in the education system gluttony. most of the fat is in the administration. sure there are things in the education system i don't agree with, like tenur for highschool/elementary teachers. but for the most part they just get shit on when the adimin keeps getting paid more, with more benefits and doing less

I'm no fan of administration, but their salaries are a drop in the bucket compared to the salaries of an entire district. Administrators don't have their union headquarters down the street from the state capitol, and they don't OWN the democratic representatives/senators like the teacher's union does.

[mangotango]

It IS that simple. One of the districts that did it was Providence, Rhode Island.

THAT'S the district I was thinking of, thanks.
And, no, in Pennsylvania it is not that simple. The combination of education and contract law in this state makes it virtually impossible to furlough all teachers in a district. That's one of the things Corbett is calling to change.

[ezman]

I'm no fan of administration, but their salaries are a drop in the bucket compared to the salaries of an entire district. Administrators don't have their union headquarters down the street from the state capitol, and they don't OWN the democratic representatives/senators like the teacher's union does.

this may be true. however the admin's salaries make up a much larger portion of the education budget than the teacher's salaries do.

[SirFuego]

this may be true. however the admin's salaries make up a much larger portion of the education budget than the teacher's salaries do.
I have a tough time believing that. We aren't talking about CEO's making over 100 times what their avg employee makes....

[Super Scout]

The amount of waste in the public schools mind blowing. I am not talking about teachers salary too. They could cut their budgets pretty easily without touching a teachers pay. How often do you read about schools projects going 200-300% over budget. There was high school renovation north of pittsburgh that went 25 million over budget. That is staggering. I talked to a facilities manager that had a weight room budgeted at 100k and the final cost was 600k. Those things would never fly in private industry and is nothing short of pathetic. Schools need to trim the fat bottom line. The state can't affrord it anymore. I agree cuts could and should be made elsewhere but I am tired of the "for the children" excuse that we need to spend never ending amounts of money. The kids will be fine. Teachers will get over it, and maybe just maybe PA will one day get out of debt.

[Deadman 94 xj]

I agree ^^. Hospitals are the same way BTW. I use to work at Mercy and there ws never a shortage of construction projects all over the place. Stuff that would have been perfectly fine left alone.

I only bring that up because education and healthcare fall into that same sensitive, untouchable, category. It's a bit of a grey area because of that and it gets taken advantage of because everybody is too scared to manage it with any type of constraint.

[dan58]

I have a tough time believing that. We aren't talking about CEO's making over 100 times what their avg employee makes....


Admins make double of a teacher. But there are a helluva lot more teachers than admins in a school system. It's not the teacher's salaries that are breaking the bank for damned sure. Many are starting out under $30K. Add a $300/month student loan, and it's slim pickings. My father retired after 33 years of teaching. A rich man he is not. Face it, schools are expensive. Heating, cooling, electricity, maintenance, and books are the largest part of the budget. It's hard to trim any of those.

As for building new schools, that's up to each individual school district. Funding is raised via bonds and grants, along with property taxes. The voters have the power to elect a school board.

MD has the right idea. It has county schools. One county system, many schools in it. ONE set of admins, not one for each school. It also gives them buying power for purchases. Same goes for all the little townships and boroughs. Combine those buggers, save money, and provide better service.

[ezman]

/\ that is a good point. i think that could work well in pa.

sure there are a lot more teachers than admin. in most schools. but there doesn't need to be as much as there are.

an example would be the hs i went to. it's in a small town. about 900 kids in 7-12 grade. all one schoo/building. our office had 4 secretaries. that didn't include the other office workers who would file papers and other things. all in all there were 10 people who worked in the office. not including the principal and vice principal.

that seems a bit excessive to me

[Super Scout]

I agree esp when you look at the price tag of those admins. Teachers make pretty good money not to start a fire but I know a few that started off around 40k there first years. Some districts in western pa teachers bring in 100k. Three months off amazing benefits, tons of time off. If a teacher started bitching to me that they didn't make enough I would have a hard time stomaching it. That said I do know a few districts that pay very little but they are the minority. That said I still think you could cut out a toooooooooooooooon of money without touching their salaries. I work in education, I see massive amounts of waste the public school piss away in renovations, improvements, and just plain stupid ideas. Schools are expensive but you don't need the worlds best of anything to teach a kid.

[ezman]

i think everything in the government could use a big cut. on all levels.

let the private sector handle everything not related to security and it will all work itself out in the long run

i like politics and education. but to me they are like sex and fighting, sure both are fun. but not together

[OverkillZJ]

they are like sex and fighting, sure both are fun. but not together

So many comments, so little time...

[JeepSteeler]

I agree esp when you look at the price tag of those admins. Teachers make pretty good money not to start a fire but I know a few that started off around 40k there first years. Some districts in western pa teachers bring in 100k. Three months off amazing benefits, tons of time off. If a teacher started bitching to me that they didn't make enough I would have a hard time stomaching it. That said I do know a few districts that pay very little but they are the minority. That said I still think you could cut out a toooooooooooooooon of money without touching their salaries. I work in education, I see massive amounts of waste the public school piss away in renovations, improvements, and just plain stupid ideas. Schools are expensive but you don't need the worlds best of anything to teach a kid.

I agree with you Mr. Poop on the Yard. I was reviewing the Pine-Richland budget submission this year and was shocked at the number of admin positions and how much they cost to staff and supply. The total budget is about $64 million this year, of which about 35 million is instruction related and about 19 million is for admin and support. 3.3 million of that alone is just for admin personnel salaries and benefits. (That $3.3 million doesn't include maintenance and operations dept..its just admin.)

Add that to the $35 million + for expansion and renovation of the high school, which is already a pretty nice structure as it is, and there is a heck of a funding black hole. We are getting hit with a 1.31 mil tax increase.

[ezman]

So many comments, so little time...

hmmm... i see someone likes it a little rough. just be sure to have them sign a waiver before hand... then it's kosher

[commando72]

Things that could help our expensive school system in Pa.
1. County systems like MD, VA and some other states have gone to, proven to work well to even out funding and spread out tax burdens.
This helps rural and urban districts most by alleviating High Millage rates in poor areas.
2. In the late 70's early 80's the state had an option of a "state contract" for the schools whereas all teachers were on the same pay scale from start to retire. The state balked at this, so the talks ended.
3. Help curb the health-care issue by negotiating a state wide health care plan for all state workers, not just teachers. That plan died in house last year, but could be an ENORMOUS savings state wide.

I am sure there are many more directly school related issues in Pa that could be worked on, not just axed and tossed in the dumpster like is planned.

Why not start Taxing the Marcellus shale gas industry? EVERY other state does, the lip-service that it will stump drilling in Pa is just plain nonsense. My family has been in the gas/oil business since the 1880's and it still is profitable for even the small time producers like us (6 wells).

That said, you guys know I am a teacher and for the first time in 17 years of teaching, I am fearful of loosing my job due to budget cuts. Shop is an elective and elective courses are the first on the chopping block. Our superintendent's comments in the trib yesterday tell a grim tale of pending lay-offs.

Corbett just hates Public Education and the cost associated with it, so it's easier to toss out the baby with the bath water than to try and come up with solutions. It's not a Pennsylvania thing, it's a nationwide problem that has finally hit Pa.

Not sure where or when the economic recovery of our country will happen, but we are all going to be bystanders for the most part. Govt. won't allow any of us "regular Joes" to get in the way of what they feel is "best for the People". I have lost all faith in our State and National Government to do what is right or just with anything. (except the Castle Doctrine, I applaud them on that)

[fathersnsons]

-Seneca Valley School Board announced they are short by $10,000,000.00, or 10.2%
- I cannot imagine going to my boss & report i am short $10m, or 10.2%

- seems to me, things should have been addressed maybe when they were at $3M heading to -->$5M or ---> or even $6M ????
The kids were hanging out last night talking about how every room just got a large flat screen TV, and smart boards.

So they plan on cutting JROTC, a program the Army pays half of.


What were they thinking?

& its just begun I am afraid
as Most states are broke.

[dan58]

I agree esp when you look at the price tag of those admins. Teachers make pretty good money not to start a fire but I know a few that started off around 40k there first years. Some districts in western pa teachers bring in 100k. Three months off amazing benefits, tons of time off. If a teacher started bitching to me that they didn't make enough I would have a hard time stomaching it.

I don't think those admins make all that much. They are secretaries, typically. We're talking less than $15/hr for the most part. Again, that is paid via property taxes, not the state budget.

As for teachers, my dad started in 1972. His salary was well under $10K. Yes, under $10K. When he retired, he was making enough to pay the bills. They scraped and saved to put me through college. Hell, my dad didn't even have his own car until I graduated from HS. He sacrificed to no end for me. Teachers are hardly overpaid in their district. Other districts may pay more, but lumping all teachers together is very problematic, if not very near sighted. Districts in cities may pay more, but pay is definitely not a universal thing. And yes, they absolutely deserve the vacation in the summer. Dad taught six classes per day every single year and coached wrestling (and football, track, and forensics for a period). That poor man was absolutely brain fried at the end of the school year. Without the summer break, teachers would be burnt out in 5 years.

Y'all have to remember that a lot of the programs you see in schools are not because the school wants/needs them. These programs cost a fortune. They're mandated by the federal govt. No child left behind was a complete failure. On paper, it looked fantastic. In reality, it forced school districts to chose between a proper education and teaching students how to do well on a standardized test. Sad, but true.

[Super Scout]

Superintendants make close to 200,000 a year, principals 150,000 a year. Yeah they make good money. My mom retired from a small district at around 65,000 a year. I consider this good money. Regardless of how hard of a job it is the perks are amazing, and they work 180 days a year. I am not saying they should get a pay cut but they do well. Atleast in western pa. That said I would bet any school district probably has 5 million dollars in their budget they could cut out without firing anyone. Districts will use this to their advantage. The state will cut 2 million in funding, they will find away to save 3 million, and blame the state and still raise local taxes. More than likely when the smoke settles the budgets will not be cut by that much. Its like selling a car if you wanna get 800 for it you list it a 1000 and let people chew you down. Corbett knows he won't cut the education budget that much, but its the framework that matters.

[MemorEsto]

As for teachers, my dad started in 1972. His salary was well under $10K. Yes, under $10K.

The average wage in 1972 was $7,133.80

[Super Scout]

You could buy a brand new corvette in 72 for around 5,200 too lol.

[dan58]

Superintendants make close to 200,000 a year, principals 150,000 a year. Yeah they make good money. My mom retired from a small district at around 65,000 a year. I consider this good money. Regardless of how hard of a job it is the perks are amazing, and they work 180 days a year. I am not saying they should get a pay cut but they do well. Atleast in western pa. That said I would bet any school district probably has 5 million dollars in their budget they could cut out without firing anyone. Districts will use this to their advantage. The state will cut 2 million in funding, they will find away to save 3 million, and blame the state and still raise local taxes. More than likely when the smoke settles the budgets will not be cut by that much. Its like selling a car if you wanna get 800 for it you list it a 1000 and let people chew you down. Corbett knows he won't cut the education budget that much, but its the framework that matters.

Again, don't group everyone together. In the central part of the state supers might make $125. Principles are mostly under $100. And what are these "amazing" perks?

What do you propose to cut out of a school budget that will save $5M? I'd challenge you to save $1M and still make all federal mandates and not drop salaries. Of course you can halt construction, but let the state of PA's bridges/highways show you what happens when you don't update/maintain infrastructure.

180 days, huh? And your mom was a teacher? It's hardly 180, and they are hardly 8 hour days either. Just dealing with idiot parents is enough to warrant whatever they make; parents make the job miserable.


The average wage in 1972 was $7,133.80

If you want to split hairs, it was under that.

[2002wranglerX]

I work in education as does my wife. Im pro-public schools too.

The issue is much deeper than we are touching on. Yes I feel administrators in this part of the state are overpaid. Also, teachers have a sweeeet deal. We barely pay anything for our health insurance, retirement and pension is awesome (and we don't pay much into it), we are eligible for special tax sheltered savings accts, etc. Pgh public where my wife works maxes teachers out at 82,000 within 10 years... its hard to beat that. Teachers could take a pay freeze and be fine. My wifes salary has gone up almost 10,000 dollars in 3 years (granted she did get her masters which was partially paid for by the school and union).

That being said, don't forget about entitlements. It costs on average 48,000 dollars/year to educate a child with special needs. I think 1 out of every 3 kids has an iep... those numbers are overwhelming and dwarf the staffs salary. We keep giving more and more entitlements. The cutsto pre-k are needed. Studies show no difference in kids performance who attended pre k programs. They're basically govt funded day care.

Peabody and many inner city schools, every kid gets free lunch and breakfast... every single one...

[Bird_Flu]

I almost never read this site but this was an interesting talk about Government waste by a very smart man. Bill Gates I'm sure has some insight on this crap and is mostly right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/03/bill-gates-ted-2011_n_830972.html?ir=Business

A link to his full talk, it's all government waste that must be reigned in. http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/1087

[Super Scout]

My mom taught first grade for 35 years, she went to work at 8 and left at 4 thats a 7 hour day so your right its hardly an 8 hour day. Two of my best friends teach high school they start at 7 and leave at 2:30 once again hardly an 8 hour day. School is in session 180 days a year. Teachers are off every weekend and every major holiday the entire time school is closed. Some have meetings before and after the school year but that does not account for very many days. Where did your dad teach ? I find it interesting that every teacher I know works 7-7.5 hours a day and I know quite a few. Teachers get some of the best benefits you can get, tons of vacation time, tons of sick time and 3 months off with pay in the summer. Show me one other career path that can match that ? I know what teachers make and I know what they do. Like I said I dont think the should have a pay cut but don't hand me a line as to how hard there job is. Greater latrobe spent millions to add another gym so they would not have to take down the bleachers between games for gym class. That was their honest to god reasoning. California university of pa spent god knows how much to build two towers as an entry way to campus that serve no purpose at all. Wasted money. My buddy is a night Janitor at latrobe makes 18 bucks an hour. As a janitor even he will admit he is over paid. At cal u they ripped out concrete sidewalks and replaced them with brick, than every year would replace any that had a crack. There is a lot of waste, this is just stuff I know from observing and reading the newspaper. I would love to take a look at their budget.
Maybe if schools had some money cut they would take a little better care of what they had. When they start projects attempt to stay within budget. I write scopes of work, and bid projects all the damn time I have yet to have one go over budget. ITs not that hard.

[dan58]

Again, my experience is much different. At school NLT 0730 and could not leave until 1530. Add on a few hours each night to grade papers. And then add more time to write the lesson plans. There's more than a 7.5 hour day. Your school experience may vary, but mine didn't let out until 3:10. Sick or personal days - 3/year. I went to a small school (graduating classes under 100) where they didn't build new things. The HS was built in 1962. There's only been a few additions to it over the years. The elementary school was built in 1992(ish) to replace three very old elementary schools. Perhaps many of the faults lie with parents who demand the best buildings and technology? Their priority has been on the "extras" and not on lower property taxes.

As for state funding, they got VERY little compared to suburban schools. Want them to trim budgets? Give each child across the state the SAME funding. Right now, small schools like my alma mater get the shaft.

[2002wranglerX]

So they work normal work hours for average pay... so what.




Again, my experience is much different. At school NLT 0730 and could not leave until 1530. Add on a few hours each night to grade papers. And then add more time to write the lesson plans. There's more than a 7.5 hour day. Your school experience may vary, but mine didn't let out until 3:10. Sick or personal days - 3/year. I went to a small school (graduating classes under 100) where they didn't build new things. The HS was built in 1962. There's only been a few additions to it over the years. The elementary school was built in 1992(ish) to replace three very old elementary schools. Perhaps many of the faults lie with parents who demand the best buildings and technology? Their priority has been on the "extras" and not on lower property taxes.

As for state funding, they got VERY little compared to suburban schools. Want them to trim budgets? Give each child across the state the SAME funding. Right now, small schools like my alma mater get the shaft.

[dan58]

So they work normal work hours for average pay... so what.

Exactly my point. SS is saying they don't and get great pay.

[Super Scout]

What school did you goto Dan ? Around here that is not the case school districts spend money like drunk sailors. Sure some have less money than others but thats not my point. My point is that REGARDLESS OF TEACHER SALARIES there is a ton of wasted money in education. A TON. That is all.

[dan58]

Northern Bedford. They don't spend it because they don't have it.

[commando72]

Have all the contracts for Westmoreland county schools because I am the Vice President of the Westmoreland County Education Association. If you have some "facts" that are found anywhere but those documents, they are simply not true. Some of the arguments made in these posts have little credibility.

I know this sounds pompous, but facts are facts.

[mangotango]

The president of the 191,000-member Pa State Education Association is calling upon district locals to "seriously consider" the one-year wage freeze proposal from Corbett. Reactions from local union officials are being described as "tepid."

Some folks might say that a call from the state's top teachers' union officials to "seriously consider" the proposal is weasily crap but, I have to admit, it's WAY more than I thought they'd say. Frankly, I expected the proposal to be dismissed out of hand by teachers.
I guess the talk of furloughs across the state got at least one guy's attention.

[commando72]

I'd rather take a pay freeze for a year than loose my job.

[SirFuego]

I'd rather take a pay freeze for a year than loose my job.
Very true. I think the fact that he is "only" proposing pay freezes is the reason this may have gained traction. It sounds like it's not even a permanent pay freeze either -- just for a year. When you got a normal raise at work, did your take home pay really change THAT much? When all is said and done, teachers that are already living comfortably on their salaries won't really notice a difference. Teachers whose money is already tight will probably need to give up a night out every month to compensate for their rent and other expenses that may have increased. It doesn't sound like a huge sacrifice to be honest.

[commando72]

Teachers whose money is already tight will probably need to give up a night out every month to compensate for their rent and other expenses that may have increased. It doesn't sound like a huge sacrifice to be honest.

Single income earners will see the most impact. About half of our teachers (out of 170) are single income families. Most likely they will be looking to supplement their income. I work with a tree service on the side to pay for heating oil etc. Times are tough and not going to get any better.

Corbett would be smart to take a look at the recall movement in Wisconsin. BTW, Corbett's state approval rating is only 32% as of yesterday.

[Super Scout]

Is anyone happy with any politician ? I see this more as a come one Corbett knew people would be upset but he probably figures if he can scare you (teachers) to cut some he than go back to the drawing board and ask for more cuts else where. If you wanna sell your car for 800 bucks you dont list it at that price you list it at 1,000. I bet his approval rating goes up in 4 years.

[dan58]

Corbett won because he wasn't a democrat.

[HoodRN]

Single income earners will see the most impact. About half of our teachers (out of 170) are single income families. Most likely they will be looking to supplement their income. I work with a tree service on the side to pay for heating oil etc. Times are tough and not going to get any better.

Corbett would be smart to take a look at the recall movement in Wisconsin. BTW, Corbett's state approval rating is only 32% as of yesterday.

I approve of Corbett :). Dan58 is right, he was elected because he wasn't a Spendocrat. The recall movement is nothing but a bunch of union theatrics. If the voters wanted the same thing as the unions, Walker wouldn't be governor. BTW, I'm a union member. For now.

[Jimbo]

/\ that is a good point. i think that could work well in pa.

sure there are a lot more teachers than admin. in most schools. but there doesn't need to be as much as there are.

an example would be the hs i went to. it's in a small town. about 900 kids in 7-12 grade. all one schoo/building. our office had 4 secretaries. that didn't include the other office workers who would file papers and other things. all in all there were 10 people who worked in the office. not including the principal and vice principal.


that seems a bit excessive to me

You're 100% right, but forcing the consolidation of districts in PA is meets with huge public resistance. The creation of central valley by mutual agreed upon merger is the exception, not the rule. A few years ago there were some forced consolidations and it resulted in alot of folks getting voted out of office. Now most legislators regard it as political suicide. It might make heaps of sense economically, but voters don't seem to care about that. They care about losing "local control" and their school's football team ceasing to exist.

Local teacher's unions don't have a lot of money, but they belong to and pay dues to PSEA and NEA, which is where their political clout comes into play, not at the local level. If things suck at the local level it is generally the fault of the school board (9 people with pretty much no qualification other than a high school diploma in charge of multimillion dollar bugets with all sorts of favors and personal agendas thrown into the mix) and the administration (who love to fault teachers but always seem to forget that they are the ones who hired those horrible teachers and then did nothing to fire them, and, in fact, probably gave them perfect evaluations year after year).

[HoodRN]

You're 100% right, but forcing the consolidation of districts in PA is meets with huge public resistance. The creation of central valley by mutual agreed upon merger is the exception, not the rule. A few years ago there were some forced consolidations and it resulted in alot of folks getting voted out of office. Now most legislators regard it as political suicide. It might make heaps of sense economically, but voters don't seem to care about that. They care about losing "local control" and their school's football team ceasing to exist.

Local teacher's unions don't have a lot of money, but they belong to and pay dues to PSEA and NEA, which is where their political clout comes into play, not at the local level. If things suck at the local level it is generally the fault of the school board (9 people with pretty much no qualification other than a high school diploma in charge of multimillion dollar bugets with all sorts of favors and personal agendas thrown into the mix) and the administration (who love to fault teachers but always seem to forget that they are the ones who hired those horrible teachers and then did nothing to fire them, and, in fact, probably gave them perfect evaluations year after year).

This is an absolutely accurate assessment :).