PDA

View Full Version : Libya



DMG
09-12-2012, 09:15 AM
One of our ambassadors was killed yesterday by muslims on 9/11. *The last time one of our ambassadors was killed we had another weak, apologist president in the whitehouse. Jimmy Carter. * It was muslims then, too.
It's funny how people say our aggressive foreign policy provokes these attacks yet they happen when we have passive liberal apologists in the whitehouse.*
We need to get that piece of garbage out of the whitehouse and put a man in there.**

PatF10
09-12-2012, 09:39 AM
agreed. Plus the embassy in cairo being stormed and our flag being torn down. Park some tanks and hver some choppers overhead and let them do their jobs

SirFuego
09-12-2012, 09:46 AM
It's funny how people say our aggressive foreign policy provokes these attacks yet they happen when we have passive liberal apologists in the whitehouse.*
I think it just means that regardless of who is president, there is always another country that will hate us and potentially take action.

Even though most domestic and foreign media has treated Obama almost as the second coming, he (and the rest of the country) hasn't been very well liked by many Muslim countries, so I can't say any of this is a surprise -- regardless of the foreign policy of the US at the time...

DMG
09-12-2012, 09:54 AM
I think it just means that regardless of who is president, there is always another country that will hate us and potentially take action.

Even though most domestic and foreign media has treated Obama almost as the second coming, he (and the rest of the country) hasn't been very well liked by many Muslim countries, so I can't say any of this is a surprise -- regardless of the foreign policy of the US at the time...

Our embassy is US soil in another country and we are expected to defend it. Our ambassadors were killed when we had pussies in the whitehouse, not "regardless of who is president" This happened because of weakness in our leadership and if we continue on this path we will eventually be over run here, too.

tanz45
09-12-2012, 10:21 AM
*We need to get that piece of garbage out of the whitehouse and put a man in there.**

Amen, too many on the government crack though..........And too many whinny students about their borrowed money.......

SirFuego
09-12-2012, 10:54 AM
Our embassy is US soil in another country and we are expected to defend it.
I don't disagree with that.

But how exactly how do you protect a US embassy (which is how large?) against a rocket attack? There are only so many attacks you can protect against when you have a small plot of land surrounded by an unstable country...

What security policies were in place at US embassies (particularly those located in unstable countries) under previous administrations and how do they differ from the current one?

Note that I'm not trying to defend what happened in any way. It was an absolute tragedy and I'm not necessarily happy with the (lack of) response either, but I'm not sure that I agree just yet that this attack was the result of a passive foreign policy or lack of caring about the security of our embassies...

DMG
09-12-2012, 11:03 AM
I don't disagree with that.

But how exactly how do you protect a US embassy (which is how large?) against a rocket attack? There are only so many attacks you can protect against when you have a small plot of land surrounded by an unstable country...

What security policies were in place at US embassies (particularly those located in unstable countries) under previous administrations?

There are pictures on the net of our dead ambassadors body being dragged around by the attackers. He was not killed in a rocket attack. He was beaten and suffocated to death.

In the past, our embassies have been guarded by marines who were allowed to fire on attackers. Security was enhanced in trouble spots. People knew that if they committed an act of war against us, our retaliation would be fierce. Our current president did not enhance security until after the death yesterday and apologizes to our attackers whenever we are attacked. I suspect it will come out that security has been somewhat nuetered to appease other countries.

Deadman 94 xj
09-12-2012, 11:07 AM
It's kind of like a dog wanting to eat out of the garbage can. He doesn't do it when you're looking.

SirFuego
09-12-2012, 11:12 AM
I suspect it will come out that security has been somewhat nuetered to appease other countries.
This is why I'm witholding judgment. Until we know the details of the (lack of) security procedures, it's tough to tell what failures allowed this attack to happen to begin with...

I'm not thrilled with the lack of response, either, and is a good argument against Obama, but I was focusing on (a) what prompted the attack and (b) why the attack was successful -- neither of which I can blame on Obama's administration at this point.

If your suspicions are correct, then I agree that it'd be a huge hit to Obama's administration, but until we get more details, it's only speculation...

DMG
09-12-2012, 12:20 PM
This is why I'm witholding judgment. Until we know the details of the (lack of) security procedures, it's tough to tell what failures allowed this attack to happen to begin with...

I'm not thrilled with the lack of response, either, and is a good argument against Obama, but I was focusing on (a) what prompted the attack and (b) why the attack was successful -- neither of which I can blame on Obama's administration at this point.

If your suspicions are correct, then I agree that it'd be a huge hit to Obama's administration, but until we get more details, it's only speculation...
Typically embassys are guarded by marines. Care to guess why local Libyans were guarding this one, instead?

Deadman 94 xj
09-12-2012, 01:11 PM
In the news paper today there's an article criticizing Oboma about how he's dropping the ball on the long range missle program. I guess military councel says this puts us at risk of being hit by Iran's long range missles, should they decide to use them.

All I'm saying is there is a lot of validity to the argument in this thread. There should be a balance between domestic needs and foreign policy but obama seems fit to turn his cheek away from our defense, which is absurd given the times we live in.

Azzy
09-12-2012, 05:01 PM
Problem is not that they dont like us, but that they do not fear us. Reagan knew how to deal with these guys, unfortunatly, not well enough to make sure one didnt end up running Iran.

ridgerunner97
09-12-2012, 09:12 PM
I feel that in the recent past we have become quite soft on foreign policy and dealing with foreign entities. If we showed a little backbone here and there things like this wouldn't happen as easily. We need to gain energy independence from the foreign ****ers and just up and leave, we don't give a shit about your piss poor **** job of a country or your religion, you don't like us we'll take our money, and our religion, and our business and head elsewhere, while you go and get ****ed. I never understood the idea of having a foreign embassy in these hostile nations, yes, it is a presence and what not and I guess we need to have somebody there but at the same time i'm a bit of an isolationist LOL shit is complicated and I don't think their is any easy remedy anymore. We need somebody aggressive, we need to kick some ass on this one to send a little wakeup call that shows we are not the sleeping giant still, that we know how to lay the beat down when it needs to happen. Fuel up a few B-52's that were built before most of these libyan goat ****ers ever saw a jet and do some nice effective carpet bombing of some strategic libyan installations...

I also blame alot of this on the UN and Harry Truman without a doubt ****ed our current situation with the middle east ROYALLY.

MemorEsto
09-13-2012, 07:31 AM
Do Marines protect any Embassy's anymore? http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/13/13840461-protesters-storm-us-embassy-in-yemeni-capital?lite&

SirFuego
09-13-2012, 09:14 AM
I'm now blaming this one on the passive foreign policy. The last two were guinea pigs. The lack of response let the dogs loose...

DMG
09-13-2012, 09:20 AM
Step 1. Send helicopter gunships to embassies in muslim countries.

Step 2. Establish death zone around embassy.

Step 3. Remind local authorities 2 pick up the bodies before they start to smell.

Step 4. Enjoy some peace and quiet. Wait for the movie version of Salman Rushdies Satanic Verses to be released and stock up on ammo.

Wrecker
09-13-2012, 09:21 AM
He was not at the embassy. He was in a different city, than the embassy is in, which is guarded by Marines. This was an "outpost" as desribed on the report I saw. It was guarded by Libiyans and friendly Militia.

commando72
09-13-2012, 05:25 PM
Our embassy is US soil in another country and we are expected to defend it. Our ambassadors were killed when we had pussies in the whitehouse, not "regardless of who is president" This happened because of weakness in our leadership and if we continue on this path we will eventually be over run here, too.

so by your logic, Bush is a ***** for letting 9/11 happen...

DMG
09-13-2012, 05:46 PM
so by your logic, Bush is a ***** for letting 9/11 happen...

How long was 9/11 planned before Bush was elected?

Obama is the new Jimmy Carter and it is no coincidence that with an apologist in the whitehouse, we are not being treated with respect.

commando72
09-13-2012, 08:32 PM
How long was 9/11 planned before Bush was elected?

Obama is the new Jimmy Carter and it is no coincidence that with an apologist in the whitehouse, we are not being treated with respect.

No idea how long before but, Oliver North said Osama was the worst enemy we had. That started under Ronald Regan when we sold arms to the Iranian Contra Rebels and on through, G.H.Bush, Clinton and then G.W. Bush. So quite a long time ago.

It doesn't matter who is in the oval office, terrorists don't respect the US and never will. You can't change what is bred into them from conception, they simply hate the US period.

I'm not siding with any party, only pointing out that TERRORISTS don't care who is in charge of their target, as long as they die and disrupt something; anything that has to do with the US.

I also don't condone apologies that are hasty and unwarranted.

World politics are more attached to our daily lives than we like. Until the US becomes a self-reliant nation for our consumer goods/services/manufacturing and energy, we can't afford to constantly piss off other countries. The middle east is imploding right now and nothing we do will change that problem.

I look at it this way, if I piss off my neighbor enough, he will stop speaking to me. That might not be a problem until I need to borrow something or have an emergency. So take Korea, cut off our aid/support/piss off their leaders. What do we do for the tens of thousands of things they manufacture for US companies and consumption. We don't have replacements for those goods or have the ability to create them here. So we need them as much as they need us to sell those goods. Kind of like a negotiation with the Devil for our current level of comfort with what we want and in some cases need.

Convince our leaders on both sides of the aisle that it's important to become self-reliant again, then we can start pissing off the middle east/Asian countries and not have much worry about where we might get our next gallon of gasoline or cell phone or shoes.

I would not have apologized, didn't like that one bit. I also understand that is has less to do with any president and more to do with hate, so should everyone else.

justin'sbig7
09-13-2012, 09:07 PM
terrorists are opportunists. when they see an opportunity in a weak leader who does not up security measures, or seem to have the balls to retaliate, they attack. bush was in for 9 months prior to the attack on the WTC after 9/11 bush (not neccessarily my hero) went ape shit on them, there wasnt really any incidents untill now with Mr. sorrywereamericans as prez.

Christopher
09-14-2012, 07:25 AM
Sooooo sick of this whole administration that sees America and Americans as the enemy.
From the navy "going green" food health color codes at mess halls, negotiating with russia on reducing our missles, calling the muslim attack at ft hood... workplace violence.... absolutely done with the weakening of defense.

DMG
09-14-2012, 09:08 AM
I have been reading British media outlets that say two VERY disturbing things.

1. Obama/his admin knew and if he actually went to meetings and briefings he could have done something.

2. The ambassador was sodomized. That is assraped. Numerous foreign media outlets are reporting that his captors sodomized him before killing him. Not shocking, based on the way homosexual acts are viewed in muslim culture.

I am not saying either of these are 100% written in stone fact but if you search alternatives to US media that are respected in the rest of the world, you will find the reports I did.

DMG
09-14-2012, 09:10 AM
He was not at the embassy. He was in a different city, than the embassy is in, which is guarded by Marines. This was an "outpost" as desribed on the report I saw. It was guarded by Libiyans and friendly Militia.

I have read that he was at the embassy, that he was on his way to a safehouse and that he was at a safehouse when he was killed. I am guessing the safehouse is the outpost you are describing.

Wrecker
09-14-2012, 09:18 AM
The Embassy is in Tripoli. He was in the town of Benghazi (sp). There it is considered the consolate. Not sure of the legal differences, but it was not protected by Marines. They came by helicopter gun ships when reports came in of the attack. Bengahzi was the center of the revolution back a few months.

MemorEsto
09-14-2012, 09:45 AM
If those rumors are true. The order of Kill em All needs to be put in place immediately

Deadman 94 xj
09-14-2012, 10:02 AM
Shit is bad. I think people need to wake up and smell the beans. I have this image in my head of obama sitting at a desk with 4 or five military personnel standing over him with their palms on his desk saying "what the hell are you doing", while obama attempts to put his head in his own butthole.



The killings of the US ambassador to Libya and three of his staff were likely to have been the result of a serious and continuing security breach, The Independent can reveal.

American officials believe the attack was planned, but Chris Stevens had been back in the country only a short while and the details of his visit to Benghazi, where he and his staff died, were meant to be confidential.

The US administration is now facing a crisis in Libya. Sensitive documents have gone missing from the consulate in Benghazi and the supposedly secret location of the "safe house" in the city, where the staff had retreated, came under sustained mortar attack. Other such refuges across the country are no longer deemed "safe".

Some of the missing papers from the consulate are said to list names of Libyans who are working with Americans, putting them potentially at risk from extremist groups, while some of the other documents are said to relate to oil contracts.

According to senior diplomatic sources, the US State Department had credible information 48 hours before mobs charged the consulate in Benghazi, and the embassy in Cairo, that American missions may be targeted, but no warnings were given for diplomats to go on high alert and "lockdown", under which movement is severely restricted.

Mr Stevens had been on a visit to Germany, Austria and Sweden and had just returned to Libya when the Benghazi trip took place with the US embassy's security staff deciding that the trip could be undertaken safely.

Eight Americans, some from the military, were wounded in the attack which claimed the lives of Mr Stevens, Sean Smith, an information officer, and two US Marines. All staff from Benghazi have now been moved to the capital, Tripoli, and those whose work is deemed to be non-essential may be flown out of Libya.

In the meantime a Marine Corps FAST Anti-Terrorism Reaction Team has already arrived in the country from a base in Spain and other personnel are believed to be on the way. Additional units have been put on standby to move to other states where their presence may be needed in the outbreak of anti-American fury triggered by publicity about a film which demeaned the Prophet Mohamed.

A mob of several hundred stormed the US embassy in the Yemeni capital Sanaa yesterday. Other missions which have been put on special alert include almost all those in the Middle East, as well as in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Armenia, Burundi and Zambia.

Senior officials are increasingly convinced, however, that the ferocious nature of the Benghazi attack, in which rocket-propelled grenades were used, indicated it was not the result of spontaneous anger due to the video, called Innocence of Muslims. Patrick Kennedy, Under-Secretary at the State Department, said he was convinced the assault was planned due to its extensive nature and the proliferation of weapons.

There is growing belief that the attack was in revenge for the killing in a drone strike in Pakistan of Mohammed Hassan Qaed, an al-Qa'ida operative who was, as his nom-de-guerre Abu Yahya al-Libi suggests, from Libya, and timed for the anniversary of the 11 September attacks.

Senator Bill Nelson, a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said: "I am asking my colleagues on the committee to immediately investigate what role al-Qa'ida or its affiliates may have played in the attack and to take appropriate action."

According to security sources the consulate had been given a "health check" in preparation for any violence connected to the 9/11 anniversary. In the event, the perimeter was breached within 15 minutes of an angry crowd starting to attack it at around 10pm on Tuesday night. There was, according to witnesses, little defence put up by the 30 or more local guards meant to protect the staff. Ali Fetori, a 59-year-old accountant who lives near by, said: "The security people just all ran away and the people in charge were the young men with guns and bombs."

Wissam Buhmeid, the commander of the Tripoli government-sanctioned Libya's Shield Brigade, effectively a police force for Benghazi, maintained that it was anger over the Mohamed video which made the guards abandon their post. "There were definitely people from the security forces who let the attack happen because they were themselves offended by the film; they would absolutely put their loyalty to the Prophet over the consulate. The deaths are all nothing compared to insulting the Prophet."

Mr Stevens, it is believed, was left in the building by the rest of the staff after they failed to find him in dense smoke caused by a blaze which had engulfed the building. He was discovered lying unconscious by local people and taken to a hospital, the Benghazi Medical Centre, where, according to a doctor, Ziad Abu Ziad, he died from smoke inhalation.

An eight-strong American rescue team was sent from Tripoli and taken by troops under Captain Fathi al- Obeidi, of the February 17 Brigade, to the secret safe house to extract around 40 US staff. The building then came under fire from heavy weapons. "I don't know how they found the place to carry out the attack. It was planned, the accuracy with which the mortars hit us was too good for any ordinary revolutionaries," said Captain Obeidi. "It began to rain down on us, about six mortars fell directly on the path to the villa."

Libyan reinforcements eventually arrived, and the attack ended. News had arrived of Mr Stevens, and his body was picked up from the hospital and taken back to Tripoli with the other dead and the survivors.

Mr Stevens' mother, Mary Commanday, spoke of her son yesterday. "He did love what he did, and he did a very good job with it. He could have done a lot of other things, but this was his passion. I have a hole in my heart," she said.

Global anger: The protests spread

Yemen

The furore across the Middle East over the controversial film about the Prophet Mohamed is now threatening to get out of control. In Sana'a, the Yemeni capital, yesterday around 5,000 demonstrators attacked the US embassy, leaving at least 15 people injured. Young protesters, shouted: "We sacrifice ourselves for you, Messenger of God," smashed windows of the security offices and burned at least five cars, witnesses said.

Egypt

Egypt's Islamist President Mohamed Morsi yesterday condemned the attack in Benghazi that killed the US ambassador. In a speech in Brussels, Mr Morsi said he had spoken to President Obama and condemned "in the clearest terms" the Tuesday attacks. Despite this, and possibly playing to a domestic audience, President Obama said yesterday that "I don't think we would consider them an ally, but we don't consider them an enemy".

Demonstrators in Cairo attacked the mission on Tuesday evening and protests have continued since.

Iraq

Militants said the anti-Islamic film "will put all the American interests Iraq in danger" and called on Muslims everywhere to "face our joint enemy", as protesters in Baghdad burned American flags yesterday. The warning from the Iranian-backed group Asaib Ahl al-Haq came as demonstrators demanded the closure of the US embassy in the capital.

Bangladesh

Islamists warned they may "besiege" the US embassy in Dhaka after security forces stopped around 1,000 protesters marching to the building. The Khelafat Andolon group called for bigger protests as demonstrators threw their fists in the air, burned the flag and chanted anti-US slogans.

Others

There was a Hamas-organised protest in Gaza City, and as many as 100 Arab Israelis took to the streets in Tel Aviv. In Afghanistan, President Hamid Karzai postponed a trip to Norway, fearing violence. Officials in Pakistan said they "expected protests". Protesters in Tunis burnt US flags.

Super Scout
09-14-2012, 10:13 AM
I don't know whats worse Obama or the fact that people so adamantly support him.

Deadman 94 xj
09-14-2012, 10:38 AM
I don't know whats worse Obama or the fact that people so adamantly support him.

All of the typical arguments aside, people support him (or anyone like him) because he is focused domestically on providing services that "people" want or need. Some of which I can't help but agree with and others that I think are too pussified. But IMO that's the jist of it.

Basically it's business. The dems are the front of the house and want to provide services and regulate them as they should. Conservatives are the back of the house, in charge of managing the numbers, shareholder relationships, and making sure the business stays out of the red. The problem now is, you have too many customers demanding more services that the business can't provide.

The front of the house gets votes because investors (voters) don't understand the back of the house. And want what they want when they want it. Because of this, the business keeps trying to keep up with demand and it grows itself until it can no longer sustain itself. It becomes so large and customers become so dependent on its services that they can no longer feed themselves. When the whole thing crumbles, it all crumbles.


On top of that, the competition wants to kill us while the service oriented, new manager, is taking bribes from them? Or because he doesn't realize the extreme measures that the competion is willing to take. But that's being optimistic.

DMG
09-14-2012, 11:04 AM
Obama is good at selling him self and buying votes. He wants to reduce peoples student loans, mortgages, etc. He wants to increase medicare. He wants to legalize a bunch of illegal aliens. All of these cost everybody money but benefits someone who will hopefully vote for him.

Deadman 94 xj
09-14-2012, 11:15 AM
Obama is good at selling him self and buying votes. He wants to reduce peoples student loans, mortgages, etc. He wants to increase medicare. He wants to legalize a bunch of illegal aliens. All of these cost everybody money but benefits someone who will hopefully vote for him.

This. But it doesn't just cost money, it cost everything.

It's like a cactus. The thorns start to develope at an early age. When they become .....j/k. I quit. LOL!

SirFuego
09-14-2012, 12:28 PM
This. But it doesn't just cost money, it cost everything.
Many people don't look at it that way though. They just think that the rich, who supposedly have more money than they know what to do with, should be the ones to cover the costs.

IMO, social media is starting to skew politics quite a bit. Social media has exploded to the point that it is a significant (if not primary) source of research for most media outlets and political analysis. However, the largest demographic that uses social media extensively is the younger, arguably spoiled, generation of folks -- who are also about the same age as sons/daughters of most people with power in the government. This generation also doesn't have "filters" like previous generations since there aren't consequences on the internet. Couple that with the fact that the most influential people on social media are popular, quite outspoken, and seem to have more extreme views. Because people actively use social media, they tend to perceive this as the status quo on "proper" views. All this leads to even the most well-educated and thought out counter-arguments to this perceived status quo to turn into a flame fest.

What seems to be happening is that more people with extreme viewpoints are active on social media than those with more moderate views. As such, those most active on social media are being skewed towards more extreme viewpoints -- which are being embraced by the media (who want people to read their articles) and people in power (who want their vote).

highlandercj-7
09-14-2012, 12:44 PM
All I can say is my vote has already been cast, and it's not for that weak master BS'er. He's 10 times worse than Carter. 911 happened because of Clinton being a sissy. He didnt do shyt for anyone but himself.

tceraso
09-14-2012, 02:01 PM
Politics!!! LOL I don't talk about it because I know I'm right and everyone else is wrong!!