Sanity Check

[highlandercj-7]

Time for a sanity check


A little over one year ago:
1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.
Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we've seen:
1) Consumer confidence plummet;
2) The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $3 a gallon;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate
(stock and mutual fund losses);
5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion dollars;
6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
America voted for change in 2006, and we got it!
Be careful what you vote for in November, you might get it again!

Can you afford it?

[Muzikman]

now, while I agree to a point, it's a little more complicated than that....and I am a registered repbulican who voted for Bush.

Go back to 1999 and do the same thing. It's even more scary.

Bad things are a head and I don't care who is in office, it will happen.

[OverkillZJ]

^yup

[DMG]

now, while I agree to a point, it's a little more complicated than that....and I am a registered repbulican who voted for Bush.

Go back to 1999 and do the same thing. It's even more scary.

Bad things are a head and I don't care who is in office, it will happen.

1999 was before the dot.com bubble burst. That makes for an unusually bad comparison.

[OverkillZJ]

.com burst was amusing, how everyone thought they could make a fortune at the same time with no one paying for it, was always beyond me!

[JeepSteeler]

.com burst was amusing, how everyone thought they could make a fortune at the same time with no one paying for it, was always beyond me!

But that's the American Way! :icon_eyes:

[DMG]

.com burst was amusing, how everyone thought they could make a fortune at the same time with no one paying for it, was always beyond me!


Yeah, I lived near the bay area at the time. I heard a lot of "I don't know what they do but the IPO will be awesome"

[Muzikman]

Well, not really. The majority of our problems have been caused by the Federal Reserve. Back when the dot com's started to fall apart the fed thought it was their duty to bail them out (it's not). Because of this, they lowered interest rates. That caused people to go out and get low rate mortages for which they can now not afford, so the housing bubble pops, what happens, the feds lower rates again to bail out the banks.

We are in a very scary time. The dollar is worth nothing and because of that the price of everything is going up. Because we are in search of cheap fuel, we quit growing wheat and switch to corn to make ethanol which in turn caused the price of wheat to more than double. So now our #1 crop costs twice as much, our fuel still costs four times as much because even with the increased production of ethanol only a very small percentage of the vehicles on the road can actually use it, not to mention they will not let it be as cheap as it should be, because that will hurt the oil companies.

[Muzikman]

The whole dot com thing was a joke and it still is. There was no reason AOL should have been powerful enough to buy outright Time Warner.

I guess information is king these days.

[Muzikman]

Oh, and I kept hearing how the reason oil prices went up was becuase our demand went up. That is total BS. I am sure our demand was higher back in the mid 90's when everyone and their mother owned large trucks ad SUVs. OUR, demand for oil I am sure has dropped. The only thing I don't know is exactly how much China's demand increased.

[xj-shark]

^^ what he said.

[OverkillZJ]

Yeah, that about sums it up... But it sucks, because every time I start planning a trip out west this summer towing the Samurai, I look at the price of Diesel (I'm paying like $4.40 now!) and say FAWWWWWK NOOOO!

[psychobilly]

One thing is for certain, politics play a role in our economy. But you cant just say its a democratic congress though, where is yor proof? You can go back and compare the democratic clintonomics of the 90's to the bush run if you want to see REAL stinkin scary. Clinton economics resulted in the longest, largest peace time economical growth in history. Fuel was around a buck a gallon (or less), there were about 6 million new jobs created every 2-3 years, taxes were cut for the poorer and middle class, education and savings were at a peak and for the first time since who knows when we were eating away at our national deficit. What a change a few years can make, you mentioned 2006, well in 2006 american people had LESS savings than anytime in our HISTORY since the great depression!!!! Just think about that for a minute. Whats happen is our nations bills have come due. We are paying a tax you dont hear a whole bunch about. Its the inflation tax and its a result of years of government over spending and government creating more money to cover our national debts. That results in a loss of currency value and we, the real john q hard working public foot the bill for it. That is cold hard fact.

So now I'm not simply saying your wrong there highlander, I'm just saying we as american citizens dont earn the right to complain if we dont take the time to educate ourselves on the important issues. Simply blaming a democratic congress does absolutly nothing to educate anyone as to the real problems, it is in fact quite counter productive. A good place to start educating oneself is the Bush foreigh policy, summed up quite well in this one quote "I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign-policy matters with war on my mind"


And I'm not going to say to vote one way or another in november, I think the real solution is just to encourage people to get interested in things that shape their future. Encourage discussion, discussion based on evidence, not mere coincidence. Educate ourselves and demand accountability of our leaders. I also think we should all be keen to past struggles as our current problems are not unlike those of the times of Thomas Paine for example.

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right.
Thomas Paine

aint that the truth.

[stillersfan]

i dont know if its true or not but i was told that in alaska we have more oil then what is in saudi arabia. now i was also told we cant use this oil due to the fact of the hich amt of impurities (for pollution reasons) but we in turn sell it to third world countries and what not to use as their fuel to burn... my question is why dont we use this oil to take care of our own country and it would inturn allow us to save money from being sent to other countries? i get the whole exon faldez thing and all but i mean come on we need the fuel and we have it so why not use it?

[Muzikman]

We have a good bit of oil, but the problem is they blocked the drilling of it. One of the largest oil resources in the world is actually in Western Canada. There is more oil there than we would know what to do with it. The problem is it's more expensive to pull from the ground. It's in a sand bed and the process to actually extract it is pretty expensive. Back about 5 years ago or so they said that once oil priced hit $50 a barrel that it would be economical to retrieve this oil. Well, it's over $100 a barrel now and they still have not stepped up production, nor have I heard them say anything about doing so.

Our other problem is refining it into gas. All our refineries are old and every time someone talks about building a new one, the environmentalist groups get in a fuss.

Bottom line though, I bet if we had $1 / gallon gas right now our economy would is in ALOT better shape. The price of everything has gone up because of the price of gas.

It's sad to think that in a time like ours, we are so tied into a resource that it can bring down the worlds largest economy.

[psychobilly]

i dont know if its true or not but i was told that in alaska we have more oil then what is in saudi arabia. now i was also told we cant use this oil due to the fact of the hich amt of impurities (for pollution reasons) but we in turn sell it to third world countries and what not to use as their fuel to burn... my question is why dont we use this oil to take care of our own country and it would inturn allow us to save money from being sent to other countries? i get the whole exon faldez thing and all but i mean come on we need the fuel and we have it so why not use it?

Supply and not using our reserves is not the current probelm. We have more oil on the market than we use as is, adding more right now will not do much to bring down costs. Buying oil from other nations is not the problem either. In fact it is a damn good thing to do. Back in the 90's (when we could buy foreign oil for pennies) spending that money overseas in turn made it possible for us to expand our gross national product. It is a win win. It made production and transportation affordable and thus had a positive impact on our economy. Sending money we dont have overseas and into the pockets of the wealthy to fund a so called war on terror is the real problem right here and now.

[psychobilly]

The price of everything has gone up because of the price of gas.


I prefer to think the price of everything (including gas) has gone up due to piss poor managment of our nations economical resources by our so called conservative leaders. I summed it up in this quote. This is what it boils down to 100%.



Whats happen is our nations bills have come due. We are paying a tax you dont hear a whole bunch about. Its the inflation tax and its a result of years of government over spending and government creating more money to cover our national debts. That results in a loss of currency value and we, the real john q hard working public foot the bill for it. That is cold hard fact.



Inflation IS!!! a tax we pay to cover our nations debt.

[OverkillZJ]

That was predictable. :106:

[DMG]

One thing is for certain, politics play a role in our economy. But you cant just say its a democratic congress though, where is yor proof? You can go back and compare the democratic clintonomics of the 90's to the bush run if you want to see REAL stinkin scary. Clinton economics resulted in the longest, largest peace time economical growth in history. Fuel was around a buck a gallon (or less), there were about 6 million new jobs created every 2-3 years, taxes were cut for the poorer and middle class, education and savings were at a peak and for the first time since who knows when we were eating away at our national deficit. What a change a few years can make, you mentioned 2006, well in 2006 american people had LESS savings than anytime in our HISTORY since the great depression!!!! Just think about that for a minute. Whats happen is our nations bills have come due. We are paying a tax you dont hear a whole bunch about. Its the inflation tax and its a result of years of government over spending and government creating more money to cover our national debts. That results in a loss of currency value and we, the real john q hard working public foot the bill for it. That is cold hard fact.

So now I'm not simply saying your wrong there highlander, I'm just saying we as american citizens dont earn the right to complain if we dont take the time to educate ourselves on the important issues. Simply blaming a democratic congress does absolutly nothing to educate anyone as to the real problems, it is in fact quite counter productive. A good place to start educating oneself is the Bush foreigh policy, summed up quite well in this one quote "I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign-policy matters with war on my mind"


And I'm not going to say to vote one way or another in november, I think the real solution is just to encourage people to get interested in things that shape their future. Encourage discussion, discussion based on evidence, not mere coincidence. Educate ourselves and demand accountability of our leaders. I also think we should all be keen to past struggles as our current problems are not unlike those of the times of Thomas Paine for example.

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right.
Thomas Paine

aint that the truth.

Clinton was no economic genius, he was in the right place at the right time. Essentially all politicians currently in office want to justify their existence by increasing the power and size of government. This is expensive.

Deficit spending leads to economic troubles and reduces the value of the dollar. Everything, including fuel then gets more expensive. And China is a huge factor as well. They are competing with us for oil and other resources, driving the price up. At the same time they are hoarding our dollars and controlling their currency to manage their economy and threaten ours. It is like the cold war but instead of ICBMs, it is energy, inflation and currency used to threaten.

[gonecheenin]

I don't know much, but what I do know is the root of our problem as well as the possible cause of our potential demise is spending money you don't have-Period


You wanna go to war, fine

Then cut spending on the other things you wanted until you get down playing soldier


No one would let us, John Q public, just print more money if we ran out
So why in the hell are we letting the Government do it??????????????????????????????????????????????

[DMG]

I don't know much, but what I do know is the root of our problem as well as the possible cause of our potential demise is spending money you don't have-Period


You wanna go to war, fine

Then cut spending on the other things you wanted until you get down playing soldier


No one would let us, John Q public, just print more money if we ran out
So why in the hell are we letting the Government do it??????????????????????????????????????????????

Because there is no law requiring a balanced federal budget and every politician wants to spend on wars/entitlement programs/pork for their district.

[2002wranglerX]

you know . . . i usually care about politics. But i'm SOOOOO sick of hearing about it, . . .that i'm starting to hear "blapity blapity blah"

and i'm the starter of some of these threads! i'm just sick of it on TV ALL THE TIME.

[Bird_Flu]

The dollar is shit, people want instant gratification on everything including their houses, and the fed lowered interest rates so far anyone could get credit. Billy is right to a point, the nations bills have come in. When the fed needed to adjust the rate upward all those :asshat:'s that spent more than they should have and didn't budget their lives properly have put the nation into a tailspin. Unfortunately it's going to get worse before it gets better, and the tax rebate checks they're sending out isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. I won't be surprised if a gallon of regular gas is $4.00+ by this summer.

[Deadman 94 xj]

The rest of the world has been paying $4-5 dollars a gallon for years. Us and Venisblabla have been paying nothing. Not sure why but it makes me feel better.

I know people are panicking about the oil reserves running out. I think thats just burocratic BS. They don't even have a way to measure the reserves yet.

[pghjeeper]

commidities are the new .com's!! There have been a lot of factors to blame for the economic shift.
1.) Chinese Yuan stopped being pegged to the dollar on July 21,2005
2.) Commidities brokers raising speculation and fears of gas shortages pushing up the price of gas
3.) Farmers not producing grain so they can plant more corn to make E85
4.) Gold at an all time high 1000.00+ per ounce
5.) Mortgage companies that made loans to people with bad credit or made interest only,ARM, etc. mortgages now paying for thier sins.
6.) The housing boom is over!!! See above.
7.) The war in Iraq and the fact that 300,000-500,000 that where earmarked to pay for the war effort and to rebuild Iraq are being stolen and sold on the black market everyday.
8.) Pork Barrel spending!!! Congress hits an all time high with pet projects like the 150,000,000.00 bridge to nowhere.
9.) President Bush hasn't vetoed a bill YET!!!
10.) Sheeple in the US care more about Britney Spears latest pshyco moment, Oprahs Big Give, and Dancing with the stars than we do about who is running our country and where our tax money is going.

[highlandercj-7]

First off compairing world gas prices too ours is BS> Yeah England may pay 5.00 a gal but The minimum wage is also like 20.00 / hour. There is no worldly reason for our gas to be so much, It's because of the gready pricks in the oil industry. Look at all there record profits. They are raping the working man every step of the way to them. Rich people don't care how much gas costs, it's the working man that has the problems. It's getting to the point that he can't afford to drive to work. The working man cannot raise his wages to compensate. "Oh yeah, hey boss, ummm I need another 500.00 a month to cover driving to work..." Try that one.
Alot of people arn't having $$ to pay there bills because there income has stayed the same and they are taking that kind of $$ out to pay to goto work. If gas would go back to a reasonable (yeah rite but fair) $2.00/gal Alot of people could get caught up.


AS for my orginal post I got it in a Email and thought it was interesting.

[psychobilly]

highlander, you got the idea, your right on track by saying its the working man suffering. I blame the oil companies to an extent too, they really are quite evil but when you start to think in percentages things still come back to point out other problems. Any company expects to make x percent of profit off of its investment. Oil companies are making bigger profits but at the same time they are spending WAY more to do it. Its that inflation and fall of the dollar thing again. Its a tax on the working man that most people just dont want to take into consideration. Well, its real and were paying it. We pay it because of percentages again. The folks GW calls "my people,The have's and have more's" dont pay it because only a very very small percentage of their wealth is spent on fuel and commercial goods prone to inflation. We pay it because a much larger portion of our income goes to paying for gas, heat and food. We are hurting and I have to say it, this is republican economics to the T. Its exactly what they want and what they do and its no secret.

[psychobilly]

Clinton was no economic genius, he was in the right place at the right time


Right place right time had nothing to do with it. he may not of been a genius I will agree but his policies and ambitions were based on benefiting the working and middle class america and times were good for us because of it.

[Deadman 94 xj]

First off compairing world gas prices too ours is BS> Yeah England may pay 5.00 a gal but The minimum wage is also like 20.00 / hour.

I agree, I just thought it was interesting when I first heard that. No way it justifies what we're going through.

[pghjeeper]

The people pushing the gas prices up are not all the oil compnaies!! Its is the commodities traders on wall street. That is who sets the price on a barrel of oil. They are getting rich off our backs, as the greedy wall street pr&*ks usualy do. There is more than enough oil on the market right now but they speculate on the price of oil and gasoline futures. Keeping the fear and speculation level high makes them more money...as well as the people backing them...the Saudi Royal family and the oil companies.

[DMG]

Right place right time had nothing to do with it. he may not of been a genius I will agree but his policies and ambitions were based on benefiting the working and middle class america and times were good for us because of it.

It takes years for economic policies to effect middle class America. Not much he did had any effect during his adminastration. I will agree that Clintons intentions were generally good, economically but the money he saved by gutting our intelligence agencies has had a very negative impact, among other things.

[ezman]

http://www.freedomtofascism.com

[psychobilly]

I wont argue it at this point, just ask for one hint of a proof in this statment, any, and I will prove you wrong.
but the money he saved by gutting our intelligence agencies has had a very negative impact, among other things


What my bitch comes down to is I'm just sick and tired and pissed off. The wife and I have spent a small fortune (and not credit) over the last 10 years and did without when we didnt have too just in order to educate and better ourselves. We are finally making a 6 figure income and it seems like all I am doing is paying my bills. Well I want better. We pay more in gas for a month than we do on our mortgage. I have a real problem with this shit. I'd almost be better off just saying fawk it and collect a welfare check. Hell, any family of 4 that didnt make 150,000 a year right now would be better off on welfare. Free heat, free food, money to buy a car, etc. I know someone on welfare who drives a better freakin car than I do. And people say its the dems that promote a welfare check, well I beg to differ. I am just tired of people being idiots because we have no one to blame for this shit other than ourselves. I'm just not ignoring it anymore and I got a real problem anymore with people who wont take the time to get up to speed on it.

[psychobilly]

and it angers me that people I like to wheel with cant wheel as much because they dont have the to money to do it.These folks work their asses off too. It angers me that I worked to incorporate and try to open an off road park and with one of the largest private land holders in Pa agreeing to do it I had to come to the realization that I cant afford the risk because of the price of fuel and our economy. I am just tired of it.

[dan58]

I don't know if anyone can accurately compare the times of the Clinton Administration versus that of the Bush Administration. Without this little episode of 9/11, things might be different. I'm positive it would be drastically different. The world is now a different place, and we must adapt to it. This nation MUST have a very strong military presence at home and abroad. A strong military is good for the American people. It creates jobs, whether people want to call it pork or not.

Oil speculators, the weak dollar, and China are all partly to blame. We are all to blame in some respect. ChinaMart (aka WalMart) is fostering enparalled economic growth in China. China is now where the US was in 1960. They have no EPA. They have no DNR. They have virtually no regulations on pollution. THAT gives them an economic and competitive edge. Ever see the 3 Gorges Damn on the Yangtze? It's a nightmare beyond imagination (environmentally, culturally, and fiscally), but they push ahead because they have no one to stop them.

When it all boils down to it, we have no one to blame but ourselves. We're a greedy people. We want it all. The mortgage crisis has no one to blame but the consumer. No one was forced to take an adjustable rate or interest-only loan on a $500K home. Greed made them do it.

[spyder873]

I love this thread! it is extremely informative and i agree with the blame being on the consumer with the mortgage crisis and the banks for offering credit to those who cant afford it. As far as the gas thing goes-Until we either build more refineries or find a alternitive we are screwed. The saudis said at one point they would sell us all the oil we need. we do not have the resources to refine it. As far as the politics-- A president or a congress cant really enact anything alone they need each other to do it. I feel the traders of both wall street and the other markets got all of us by the short and curleys. I mean someone farts on the floor and the dow drops 100 points, they concentrate on words such as might and is and not the big picture. Also what happened to true profits not EXPECTED profit( oh yes we are going to fall short of our miss our quarterly goal by 2%) what they are not saying is they made 10% more then last quarter but they planned on making 12%. Then everyone goes sell and the market drops! In turn poeple by oil and gold and the dollar weakens, which of course is top headline on the news. so I feel its a combination of things causing it . The way i see it is it doesn't matter whos in office because the economy isn't run by any of them but by the markets. I also feel the goverment should not bail anyone out unless it is because a company squndered away the working mans retirement.Sorry i just started by saying i love the thread and went off. Sorry if i misspelled anything. and thanks

P.S. now my fingers are tired:biggrin:

[DMG]

I wont argue it at this point, just ask for one hint of a proof in this statment, any, and I will prove you wrong.


I am not going to waste too much time because you are a partisan and you will just pick apart any source I give.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/11/232727.shtml

[DMG]

I love this thread! it is extremely informative and i agree with the blame being on the consumer with the mortgage crisis and the banks for offering credit to those who cant afford it.

The subprime mortgage crisis would just be a problem for mortgage lenders rather than all of us except for one thing.

Looking at credit A>B>C>D, subprime is C and D. Mortgages have, for years been packaged as financial instruments for investment. Until the mid 1990s, it was illegal to make subprime mortgages into investments. Clinton changed the law to allow C and D mortgages to be securitized, mostly into bonds. People with poorer credit pay more rate and bonds are generally thought of as secure, conservative investments. Perfect for your pension fund, right?

At the same time, Clinton outlawed 'redlining'. Redlining was a policy of mortgage companies where they essentially looked at an area and decided it was a ghetto and they would not lend there. Usually this was because of an extremely high default rate in said area. It was considered racist because there was usually a high minority population in the redlined area. Think Compton, for instance.

So now companies were being pressured to lend in areas with a high default rate and at the same time, their mortgages could be packaged and sold as investments so the mortgage companies could completely wash their hands of them.

What we are seeing now is the backlash from these changes made to the Community Reinvestment Act in 1995 by a probably well-meaning Bill Clinton.

What do you have to say about this, Psychobilly :flipoff2:

[psychobilly]

I am not going to waste too much time because you are a partisan and you will just pick apart any source I give.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/11/232727.shtml

are you trying to be funny....because I got a real good laugh out of your link..

Some better sources...hahah

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/63426



Without this little episode of 9/11, things might be different.

You cant blame 9/11, you have to blame the DECISIONS made post 9/11. Lets not forget we were facing an enemy with the combined resources probably not much greater than those of the members of pgh-offroad. Hell, pgh-offroad could of kicked al-qaeda's ass. They were mearly a pimple on a gnats ass, they had to use our own resources to bring their fight to us. Compare that to standing down the only other superpower in our history. The soviets had the largest armed force in the world, the biggest bombs including one powerful enough to crack the earths crust, and we beat them. I'm not sure why you would even want to think an enemy so insignificant could have ran our economic resources so thin had it not been due to our own mismanagment.

GW knows its not about 9/11....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/psychobilly/8dubya3rgf3t43t.jpg

[psychobilly]

At the same time, Clinton outlawed 'redlining'. Redlining was a policy of mortgage companies where they essentially looked at an area and decided it was a ghetto and they would not lend there. Usually this was because of an extremely high default rate in said area. It was considered racist because there was usually a high minority population in the redlined area. Think Compton, for instance.


truely a great thing he did there. Compton isnt going to crash our economy and in fact there is money to be made anywhere if people can afford to get to work, heat their homes and feed their children.


What we are seeing now is the backlash from these changes made to the Community Reinvestment Act in 1995 by a probably well-meaning Bill Clinton.

Nope. We had seen growth because of it and we had seen working people benefiting, you dont need to be a genius to see that. The problems now are due to inflation and we already discussed that. When you spend all your money to get to work, heat your home and feed your family your not going to pay off your debt.


Looking at credit A>B>C>D, subprime is C and D. Mortgages have, for years been packaged as financial instruments for investment. Until the mid 1990s, it was illegal to make subprime mortgages into investments. Clinton changed the law to allow C and D mortgages to be securitized, mostly into bonds. People with poorer credit pay more rate and bonds are generally thought of as secure, conservative investments. Perfect for your pension fund, right?


I dont know a single thing about it and dont really care too because I do know its not the reason I'm paying more for gas than I pay on my mortgage. Its not the reason working people cant afford a hobby right now, nor is it the reason my food bills have been getting bigger (I do blame part of that on me getting bigger..). In a few months-years that may play an increasing role in our economic problems but its not in any way what has put the ball into motion. Our financial institutions are struggling right now simply because we are.

[psychobilly]

I looked into it. Subprime mortgages are a 1.3 trillion dollar business. They have made billions of dollars of profit over the last 7 years so I'd say thats been REAL good for your pension. The problems the lending markets are facing are because these folks are spending too high a percentage of their income on the inflation tax we talked about to keep up with their payments. The banks are hurting for the same exact reason we are. No ifs and or buts about it!!!!!!!!!!!!

[highlandercj-7]

Some peopple will argue that there is no laws against making a proffit. Well imagine if the Electric companies would screw us like the oil companies are. How about a 700.00 a month electric bill. That's what f**Kin pizz's me off. There is no law against screwing the people over, or maybe it's that it's not enforced. Most people are forced to putting the $$ they were putting to debit to everything else.

[DMG]

I looked into it. Subprime mortgages are a 1.3 trillion dollar business. They have made billions of dollars of profit over the last 7 years so I'd say thats been REAL good for your pension. The problems the lending markets are facing are because these folks are spending too high a percentage of their income on the inflation tax we talked about to keep up with their payments. The banks are hurting for the same exact reason we are. No ifs and or buts about it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I bet you looked into it.:042:

The financial institutions affected by the subprime crisis are hurting because they invested in mortgage securities that never should have been sold. Then the housing bubble burst and people found themselves way upside down in their home loan as the booming economy slowed so some people couldn't afford the loans they signed for. Also, a lot of people with floating mortgages came to the end of their introductory period.

I am no expert (yet) but seriously, you do not understand how our economy works. Every change made to our economy by the government or outside factors effects many other things over time. An economy as big as ours had inertia. When something is changed it may take years for its true effects to be realized.

[DMG]

I dont know a single thing about it and dont really care too because I do know its not the reason I'm paying more for gas than I pay on my mortgage. Its not the reason working people cant afford a hobby right now, nor is it the reason my food bills have been getting bigger (I do blame part of that on me getting bigger..). In a few months-years that may play an increasing role in our economic problems but its not in any way what has put the ball into motion. Our financial institutions are struggling right now simply because we are.

If you are paying more for gas than for your mortgage it is because you drive too much and drive inefficient vehicles. People like you who fail to adapt are partially causing the price increases by keeping up the demand. Adapt, don't whine about it on the internet.

[dan58]

Remember December 2001? Everyone and their brother was on the boat to go out and defend our flag? It was based on the best available information. IMHO, we did what we felt was necessary to maintain freedom at home.
War is expensive. I can tell you that using 59M gallons of diesel per month in the big sandbox hurts. I can also tell ya that freedom isn't free, and I have zero problems with the US spending money on military.




You cant blame 9/11, you have to blame the DECISIONS made post 9/11.

[dan58]

The problems the lending markets are facing are because these folks are spending too high a percentage of their income on the inflation tax we talked about to keep up with their payments.

The reason people are foreclosing on their homes is because they took variable rate/interest only/ballon mortgages, and they also borrowed WAY too much (up to 65% of their net earnings). That's just full on financial suicide. When the feds started to bring back interest rates to a more reasonable level, those home owners could no longer make payments. It wasn't a tax of any sort.
I lived down in Baltimore when home sales were through the roof. People were paying $20K OVER asking price, just to get into a home. Prices are finally coming back down to what they should be.

Here is an example of exactly this (from the Baltimore Sun two weeks ago):
IN PG County (near DC), and couple is facing foreclosure because they can no longer afford their home. They earned slightly over $100K and bought a $650K house! The husband was hurt on the job and didn't have disability insurance. No one forced them to buy a house that far out of their means.

[BigZees]

Politics... Bleh...

We are merely here to produce plastic for mother earth. Once we reach mother earths plastic goal... pfffffttttt we are history.

That is all.

[DMG]

Politics... Bleh...

We are merely here to produce plastic for mother earth. Once we reach mother earths plastic goal... pfffffttttt we are history.

That is all.

Actually we are just food for aliens. All this stuff we think is our life and career, etc is just a more elaborate version of the hamster wheel to keep us busy until the aliens come back to harvest us. They invented beer to help keep us tender and juicy.

[PatF10]

i like to place some blame a little further back around the FDR times and his great job in creating a welfare state and people who arent self reliant but rely on a government that will take care of them.

Ive seen so many people who are just oblivious to all the things talked about in this thread. They just dont care as long as they seem to be happy they dont care if taxes are high or if grocery costs are rising.

Im tired of all the spending our government does and more and more useless politicians that really do not do anything but make themselves more money. I often wonder why do these people spend millions upon millions to get a job that only pays a couple hundred thousand a year.....

the gas thing... getting me to possibly buy a bike and add some FI to the jeep!

[Muzikman]

Actually we are just food for aliens. All this stuff we think is our life and career, etc is just a more elaborate version of the hamster wheel to keep us busy until the aliens come back to harvest us. They invented beer to help keep us tender and juicy.


Aliens? Screw that, we are the pets for the more dominant species on this earth...Mice

[2002wranglerX]

Right place right time had nothing to do with it. he may not of been a genius I will agree but his policies and ambitions were based on benefiting the working and middle class america and times were good for us because of it.


which is why you and i dont see eye to eye on many things.












here's something to consider, people are bitching about the amount of $ the war is costing, but they fail to think about how much $ it has cost us to fund the liberals FAILING social programs over the last 40 years.

Yes FAILING.

oh and i can't wait for gov't to take over health care. right now if i don't like what my insurace co is doing, i can CHANGE companies!!!! once the gov't takes over, FORGET IT. SHITTY HEALTH CARE FOR EVERYONE! yay!

[DMG]

i like to place some blame a little further back around the FDR times and his great job in creating a welfare state and people who arent self reliant but rely on a government that will take care of them.

Ive seen so many people who are just oblivious to all the things talked about in this thread. They just dont care as long as they seem to be happy they dont care if taxes are high or if grocery costs are rising.

Im tired of all the spending our government does and more and more useless politicians that really do not do anything but make themselves more money. I often wonder why do these people spend millions upon millions to get a job that only pays a couple hundred thousand a year.....

the gas thing... getting me to possibly buy a bike and add some FI to the jeep!

I agree. We used to be a nation of self-reliant individuals. Not any more. It may be too late for people to learn this but it is true: more government is NEVER the answer.

[2002wranglerX]

I agree. We used to be a nation of self-reliant individuals. Not any more. It may be too late for people to learn this but it is true: more government is NEVER the answer.

x2

[spyder873]

The facts are that we can pass blame till the cows come home. the only thing we can do is try to change it!
1st -- put poeple back to work and i am not talking about wal-mart jobs but good paying jobs that people can live on
Which in turn will put more money in the tax rolls (local, fed and state) also give them more disposible income to spend

2nd-- make welfare a 2-3 year system. You can be on it for that long and thats it. If you go longer you lose the bene's. Get a job!!

3rd give the military all the tools they need toget the job done. We are in it now so we have to finish it!

4th vote out all the useless politicians and make the job how it was intended a short term, not a life career!

5th-- give the intellagence agences all the tools they to get their job done and protect us!

6th quit the useless law suit that clog up the judical system

7th and most important stop all the squabling amongst our selves ,and come to the realization that we are in this together and there is a middle ground and in order to overcome it must be met!!

sorry again i went on a tangent and my fingers are again tired, sorry again for any misspelling.

[OverkillZJ]

x2

x3.

[2002wranglerX]

i also wonder how wise it is to have these lifetime politicians.

at some point they have to lose touch with the rest of the population (if they ever were in touch).



I do understand the idea though that they have to please the public to keep their jobs, so term limits would basically mean they could do whatever they want.

it just seems the longer they're in office, the more they get tied in to all the wrong things.

[spyder873]

i believe they all go in with good intentions but after time they become corrupt. with a limited time in there. there is less time to get corrupt by the lobbiest. so they will either have the true intentions of the public or go really bad and then they are only in there for the short term. just my 2 cents

[OverkillZJ]

It's kind of like this group, the more time you spend with PGH-OR, the more corrupt you get!

[spyder873]

It's kind of like this group, the more time you spend with PGH-OR, the more corrupt you get!

X2 :042:

[ezman]

i'm sorry but freedom is free... it's when you think you have to pay for it that you have no freedom...

we needed to discipline those that perpetrated us on 9/11... we did... how does attacking another sovereign nation protect our freedom...

and we didn't act on our best intelligence... there were more reports that iraq had no wmd... the bush admin. just acted on the information they wanted to... not all of it...

what did iraq have to do with al queda... hussien was a whacko... horrible person... yes... but it's not our problem... when the iraq people got tired of it they will rise up... just like everyother country in the world did before the us thought they were the guardians of the world...

[2002wranglerX]

i'm sorry but freedom is free... it's when you think you have to pay for it that you have no freedom...

we needed to discipline those that perpetrated us on 9/11... we did... how does attacking another sovereign nation protect our freedom...

and we didn't act on our best intelligence... there were more reports that iraq had no wmd... the bush admin. just acted on the information they wanted to... not all of it...

what did iraq have to do with al queda... hussien was a whacko... horrible person... yes... but it's not our problem... when the iraq people got tired of it they will rise up... just like everyother country in the world did before the us thought they were the guardians of the world...

even saddam's own military thought they had WMD's

The U.S. policing the world is NOT a new thing.

[psychobilly]

here's something to consider, people are bitching about the amount of $ the war is costing, but they fail to think about how much $ it has cost us to fund the liberals FAILING social programs over the last 40 years.

Yes FAILING.

oh and i can't wait for gov't to take over health care. right now if i don't like what my insurace co is doing, i can CHANGE companies!!!! once the gov't takes over, FORGET IT. SHITTY HEALTH CARE FOR EVERYONE! yay!


Lets look at SSI. Sure its failing but only because its being used to fund other gov projects. I dont think its the best thing but it is a fail proof system if its not messed with. It averages that for every 40 years of payments made to SSI they pay out 6 checks. Thats not "good" so to say since that means on average we only see 6 checks from SSI but that does not mean its a failing "liberal social program". It means we need it better regulated, more of it used for the people, less for policing the world. More liberal social benefits, less skimming.


even saddam's own military thought they had WMD's

The U.S. policing the world is NOT a new thing.

Did they? Even if some slack mouth nobody thought they did (obviously those who know, knew they didnt) shouldnt we have known better? I mean theres a ton of people who think we have aliens at area 51 but, taking their word as fact, would that not make one an incompetent idiot? hell. I demand better, and its already been established that the intel was false and was never from a good source, it was a freakin cab driver...WTF PEOPLE are we that freakin stoopid that we can accept this? Meanwhile north korea built and tested the bomb, we let a real threat get a real WMD and paid very little attention.

if you want to know why were in iraq, just look at the Iraq oil law. it was written by a consultant firm hired by the bush administration. It GUARANTEES profit to foreign (to iraq) oil companies and guarantees them the rights to a very large portion of Iraqs oil fields. iraq owns very little of their oil right now. So when Haliburton and its family of companies are done making a fortune off our tax dollars importing oil into iraq that we have paid for they could begin to export iraq's oil to us at these inflated prices and continue to rake in the profits. It almost sounds to crazy to be true but it sure as shit is. Again, republican politics and the real reason people will "spend millions" to get a job that only pays a few hundred grand.

[OverkillZJ]

"Better regulated"

So, you want more government to regulate the governments complete and utter failures, then?

As for WMD's - everyone had the same information, and everyone wanted to take the same action.

As for your last statement, wow. You're nothing short of a conspiracy theorist who seems to want everything handed to him by the government. :overkill:

[Deadman 94 xj]

I agree. We used to be a nation of self-reliant individuals. Not any more. It may be too late for people to learn this but it is true: more government is NEVER the answer.


This is one hell of a reality. Just go to another country and visit one of their college campuses on a Sunday morning at 7am. PACT full of students studying, on the lawns reading, and all that fun stuff.
THIS IS OUR COMPETITION!! in our wonderfull global market.

You wont find that here, I know this being that I'm in school at Duguesne. Doesn't happen.

[psychobilly]

SHITTY HEALTH CARE FOR EVERYONE! yay!


Theres something going on right now in health care that has me scratchin my head. About 3 weeks ago we were told that there was a critical nationwide shortage of metoprolol. Its kinda the standard treatment med for a variety of cardiac conditions. Hospitals everywhere have been running out of it. Now the last night I worked they came around and pulled all our Heparin from our pyxis (med storage computer) because of a critical shortage. life saving meds and were running out of them. I dont know whats happening but there is a reason for it. That and there is another very serius crisis looming in health care. There is a drastic shortage of physicians. We have already had to fly md's in from other countries to work a few days and then fly them back home because there is such a shortage of physicians, especially in Pa. Health care is in need of some serious attention.

[psychobilly]

So, you want more government to regulate the governments complete and utter failures, then


No, I want legislation that secures that money for its intended purpose. I dont want it going to another country in the form of foreign aid, I dont want it paying huge contracts to private companies working in Iraq and so on. I want it for its intended purpose, for us hard working mother f'n americans who put it there. Its really that simple. Why does it take more government to make a simple change in policy? A real world "conservative" (not our present republican psuedo-conservative) change in policy that will benefit you and I.

[2002wranglerX]

Theres something going on right now in health care that has me scratchin my head. About 3 weeks ago we were told that there was a critical nationwide shortage of metoprolol. Its kinda the standard treatment med for a variety of cardiac conditions. Hospitals everywhere have been running out of it. Now the last night I worked they came around and pulled all our Heparin from our pyxis (med storage computer) because of a critical shortage. life saving meds and were running out of them. I dont know whats happening but there is a reason for it. That and there is another very serius crisis looming in health care. There is a drastic shortage of physicians. We have already had to fly md's in from other countries to work a few days and then fly them back home because there is such a shortage of physicians, especially in Pa. Health care is in need of some serious attention.

you can thank the clintons for that. Bill put a cap on the amount a dr or hospital can charge for a procedure. THEN it's become so expensive for Doctors to operate, they have had to merge JUST to afford the malpractice insurance.

My dad was a salesman for Zimmer and Depuy. He sold medical implants like hips and knees. He would go into surgery and make sure that the Dr. understood the difference in systems. The doctors were pretty vocal about why there's a shortage.

i can only imagine the cluster**** that will come from putting this into government hands. Giving them total control

YAY

[psychobilly]

You're nothing short of a conspiracy theorist


Its not conspiracy, its just the way it is. Just read the Iraq oil law. It clearly states that iraq will own only 17 of its 80 oil fields and does not grant them rights to any newly discovered oil. It also has law that guarantees profit to these "foreign" oil companies. Thats not theory, thats informed. The iraqi people were up in arms over this, workers striked and other people straped on bombs. Faux isnt telling the whole story. Iraqs trade unions (hundreds of thousands of working men and women) strongly opposed this law, asking for the "democracy" that was promised. You need not be a genius to see why this shit is all happening, but I'd question the genius of anyone who would choose to ignore it.

[OverkillZJ]

I was not arguing that fact (nor do I disagree with it, frankly) - but that was not your last statement, was it?

[psychobilly]

you can thank the clintons for that. Bill put a cap on the amount a dr or hospital can charge for a procedure. THEN it's become so expensive for Doctors to operate, they have had to merge JUST to afford the malpractice insurance.

My dad was a salesman for Zimmer and Depuy. He sold medical implants like hips and knees. He would go into surgery and make sure that the Dr. understood the difference in systems. The doctors were pretty vocal about why there's a shortage.

i can only imagine the cluster**** that will come from putting this into government hands. Giving them total control

YAY

You wouldnt believe the changes since Clintons days. Every year I have to spend hours being brought up to date on the changes to medicare and medicaid, DRG's, protocols and what not and I have absolutly nothing to do with billing. I really dont know how I feel about gov provided health care but I do see first hand there is a very real and serious problem awaiting us as we age.

[OverkillZJ]

Everyone knows there's issues with the health care system, but I can't imagine how "government regulated" is going to help at all.

"Less law suits" that are "fawkin' ridiculous" sound like a better idea. Let people do their jobs.

[psychobilly]

I was not arguing that fact (nor do I disagree with it, frankly) - but that was not your last statement, was it?


Yeah, I was talking about why we are so interested in Iraq while real threats mature elsewhere around the world.

[psychobilly]

Everyone knows there's issues with the health care system, but I can't imagine how "government regulated" is going to help at all.

"Less law suits" that are "fawkin' ridiculous" sound like a better idea. Let people do their jobs.


I'm not going to argue that one bit.

[OverkillZJ]

No. We cannot agree. Hell will freeze over instantly, and alien plastic mice will take over the world (according to the combined theories of bigzees, DMG, and musikman.)

On that punchy tired off my ass note, it's bed time! :icon_weed:

[DMG]

Lets look at SSI. Sure its failing but only because its being used to fund other gov projects. I dont think its the best thing but it is a fail proof system if its not messed with. It averages that for every 40 years of payments made to SSI they pay out 6 checks. Thats not "good" so to say since that means on average we only see 6 checks from SSI but that does not mean its a failing "liberal social program". It means we need it better regulated, more of it used for the people, less for policing the world. More liberal social benefits, less skimming.

SSI is not failing because it is used to fund other gov projects, it is failing because when it was created, the average person died before they could collect. Now we have millions of people collecting and not nearly enough paying into it to support them.

[dan58]

Diprocol (sp?) millions of doses were disposed of in Europe because it was tainted with poison last week.

If you wantmore regulations, Obama and Billary promised this week to add more regulations. Ding.

No doctors? Blame malpractice insurance. Blame the govt for not putting a cap on lawsuits that put doctors out of business.

[DMG]

i'm sorry but freedom is free... it's when you think you have to pay for it that you have no freedom...

we needed to discipline those that perpetrated us on 9/11... we did... how does attacking another sovereign nation protect our freedom...

and we didn't act on our best intelligence... there were more reports that iraq had no wmd... the bush admin. just acted on the information they wanted to... not all of it...

what did iraq have to do with al queda... hussien was a whacko... horrible person... yes... but it's not our problem... when the iraq people got tired of it they will rise up... just like everyother country in the world did before the us thought they were the guardians of the world...

It doesn't mean the same thing as the bumper sticker slogan you are referring to, but freedom is not free.
As Jefferson said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"

The war in Iraq has nothing to do with freedom for us, imho.

[TimMichaels]

The war in Iraq has nothing to do with freedom for us, imho.

Truth. Thank you.

[dan58]

Truth. Thank you.

Wiping out hordes of AlQueda and securing a previously unfriendly country isn't related to our freedoms?

[2002wranglerX]

Wiping out hordes of AlQueda and securing a previously unfriendly country isn't related to our freedoms?

they'll never get it. Between their socialist professors, the over abundance of concrete, non-dynamic thinking, and the liberal media, they'll never get it.



i'm sure "change" sounds REALLY good for them too. Despite having absolutely no idea what the hell they want to "change" and how that "change" will better their lives.

[DMG]

Wiping out hordes of AlQueda and securing a previously unfriendly country isn't related to our freedoms?

Any connection between Al Quaeda and Iraq is a tenuous one at best. We need to admit that we made a mistake there so we can move on and learn from it.

And yes, I initially fell for the justification given for invading Iraq.


On the other hand, invading Afghanistan WAS justified, imho because we could directly tie 9/11 to the Taliban and Al Quaeda in Afghanistan.

[psychobilly]

I dont know where you've been Dan but I dont think Iraq is secure, thats why were still there and spending billions to police the place. You havent heard anything about the civil strugles going on in that place? Am I not correct, or did things turn out so well we decided to stay for vacation? Lets not forget the actual war ended years ago and furthermore its accepted that they didnt pose a real threat to ANY of our freedoms in the first place. The biggest threat to our freedoms is the resulting financial and economic threat.

[psychobilly]

Any connection between Al Quaeda and Iraq is a tenuous one at best. We need to admit that we made a mistake there so we can move on and learn from it.

And yes, I initially fell for the justification given for invading Iraq.


On the other hand, invading Afghanistan WAS justified, imho because we could directly tie 9/11 to the Taliban and Al Quaeda in Afghanistan.


I couldnt agree more. In fact i wish we would walk 30 rangers into pakistan (it wouldnt take any more) and disembowel bin laden, piss on his guts and post the video on youtube for the world to see.

[PatF10]

they'll never get it. Between their socialist professors, the over abundance of concrete, non-dynamic thinking, and the liberal media, they'll never get it.


truth thankyou

[psychobilly]

they'll never get it. Between their socialist professors, the over abundance of concrete, non-dynamic thinking, and the liberal media, they'll never get it


truth thankyou


Propaganda slop talk BS that does nothing to better anyones understanding in very real and important issues. So no sirs, thank you. :039:

hehehe

[dan58]

I dont know where you've been Dan but I dont think Iraq is secure, thats why were still there and spending billions to police the place. You havent heard anything about the civil strugles going on in that place? Am I not correct, or did things turn out so well we decided to stay for vacation? Lets not forget the actual war ended years ago and furthermore its accepted that they didnt pose a real threat to ANY of our freedoms in the first place. The biggest threat to our freedoms is the resulting financial and economic threat.

I know it's not secure, but it sure is one helluva lot better than when we started there. If we weren't there, it would be an even bigger hotbed for terrorist organizations.

[DMG]

they'll never get it. Between their socialist professors, the over abundance of concrete, non-dynamic thinking, and the liberal media, they'll never get it.



i'm sure "change" sounds REALLY good for them too. Despite having absolutely no idea what the hell they want to "change" and how that "change" will better their lives.

Yeah, you can really tell I have been influenced by the liberal media and my socialist professors. :120: :120:

[psychobilly]

but it sure is one helluva lot better than when we started there. If we weren't there, it would be an even bigger hotbed for terrorist organizations.

Well, I dont believe that. And I honestly dont fear any single terrorist group that may have wanted to set up shop in Iraq, since as we know iraq is not connected, did not harbor terrorists and had no WMD program. The real terrorists real interest is in nations connect with Dr Khan and thats one thing we should be keen on to ensure our safety in the future. The problems in pakistan (where alqeuda does reside) and the development of the islamic bomb are more serious than any supposed threat there ever was from Iraq.

[psychobilly]

Lets get closer to home, I'm tired of talking Iraq. Theres another very big economic issue that we havent heard much about lately, the deregulation of energy. Next year pa should be mostly deregulated (electic and gas I think) and at the end of 2009 mandated rate caps expire. I had thought that would be a good thing but after californias problems I'm kinda worried about it. In theory it sounds great but in practice Enron proved its just a way to create a better thief. Pappy Bush started the ball rolling with deregulation and Clinton even supported it (at first anyway) Then you guys remember all those blackouts? Enron and other connected companies had cut power production by up to 75% to create a shortage of energy. Enron and the others then demanded and got a rate hike in order to keep up with the so called rising demands. Clinton tried to put a stop it in december of 2000 with a presidential order but 3 days after GW was put in office he did away with that order (prime example of republican politics and a prime example of why we sometimes need fed regulation). By may 2001 energy costs in california had gone up 1000% yes I said 1000%, and at times nearing a 2000% increase (you cant make this up). Interesting to note these folks had given hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) to the republican party and were on Cheneys energy board. I can hardly wait to see what happens here, especially if we put another greedy ass republican dick bag in office.

[DMG]

Lets get closer to home, I'm tired of talking Iraq. Theres another very big economic issue that we havent heard much about lately, the deregulation of energy. Next year pa should be mostly deregulated (electic and gas I think) and at the end of 2009 mandated rate caps expire. I had thought that would be a good thing but after californias problems I'm kinda worried about it. In theory it sounds great but in practice Enron proved its just a way to create a better thief. Pappy Bush started the ball rolling with deregulation and Clinton even supported it (at first anyway) Then you guys remember all those blackouts? Enron and other connected companies had cut power production by up to 75% to create a shortage of energy. Enron and the others then demanded and got a rate hike in order to keep up with the so called rising demands. Clinton tried to put a stop it in december of 2000 with a presidential order but 3 days after GW was put in office he did away with that order (prime example of republican politics and a prime example of why we sometimes need fed regulation). By 2001 energy costs in california had gone up 1000% (you cant make this up) yes I said 1000%. Interesting to note these folks had given hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) to the republican party and were on Cheneys energy board. I can hardly wait to see what happens here.

The California energy crisis was largely caused by the inept and corrupt governor, Gray Davis. He was recalled from office for the energy mess he allowed to happen.

Davis took large campaign contributions from some of the energy companies involved in the crisis and most of his energy advisors were former employees of those companies.

[2002wranglerX]

Well, I dont believe that. And I honestly dont fear any single terrorist group that may have wanted to set up shop in Iraq, since as we know iraq is not connected, did not harbor terrorists and had no WMD program. The real terrorists real interest is in nations connect with Dr Khan and thats one thing we should be keen on to ensure our safety in the future. The problems in pakistan (where alqeuda does reside) and the development of the islamic bomb are more serious than any supposed threat there ever was from Iraq.

you also don't have the first hadn intell . . .

not trying to insult you, but you don't know all

[2002wranglerX]

The California energy crisis was largely caused by the inept and corrupt governor, Gray Davis. He was recalled from office for the energy mess he allowed to happen.

Davis took large campaign contributions from some of the energy companies involved in the crisis and most of his energy advisors were former employees of those companies.


Keep in mind too the amount of energy california uses is insane. I'm not saying that's this horrible thing and needs regulated. There's a lot of people in 1 state (that's pretty damn big i know).

They also put a lot of faith in wind and solar power.

The solar power in So-cal where i lived was fantastic. you could literally "live off the grid". Many homes were actually able to SELL energy to the power company!

Will that work in western PA. No.

Wind power IMHO isn't really the answer. They're too intrusive and deadly to the wildlife, as well as really inneficient.

[gonecheenin]

Wind power IMHO isn't really the answer. They're too deadly to the wildlife.

How you figure?

[2002wranglerX]

How you figure?

there was a report when i was out in CA. it was showing the amount of resources to keep them working and the number of birds killed by them . . .

i know solar works fantastic out there.

i might be wrong on windpower. i was just relaying what they said when i was out there.

[ezman]

if the cost of freedom is eternal vigilence... then someone hasn't been paying the bill on that one...

windmills harmful to the wildlife... yes to a degree.... large spinning blades to tend to be a hazard for flying animals... lets see some other things that harm the wildlife even more... cars... run off from coal plants... boats...

and ineffeciant???? wind blows and moves the turbines... this creates energy... how is that ineffeciant... especially when the areas that could use this energy would not be far from the source...

and yes wind energy could work in pa... we have plenty of wind for it...

[OverkillZJ]

its...not...always that simple... but... when did everyone... start talking... like this....






:overkill:

[mudforblood]

there was a report when i was out in CA. it was showing the amount of resources to keep them working and the number of birds killed by them . . .

i know solar works fantastic out there.

i might be wrong on windpower. i was just relaying what they said when i was out there.

Ok, we'll just call them bird mills. Very efficient considering it only uses two birds a month to power it. It just spins around waiting for the next bird to propel into the next 15 day cycle.


Sounds good to me.:overkill:

[2002wranglerX]

if the cost of freedom is eternal vigilence... then someone hasn't been paying the bill on that one...

windmills harmful to the wildlife... yes to a degree.... large spinning blades to tend to be a hazard for flying animals... lets see some other things that harm the wildlife even more... cars... run off from coal plants... boats...

and ineffeciant???? wind blows and moves the turbines... this creates energy... how is that ineffeciant... especially when the areas that could use this energy would not be far from the source...

and yes wind energy could work in pa... we have plenty of wind for it...

it's solar that won't be as efficient in PA. we already have windmills in pa

part of the efficiency that you have to consider is all the maintanence required to keep those windmills going.

[dan58]

If you really want to talk corrupt politics, go no further than our beloved PA. Gov Spendell is such an arrogant asshole. He has NO idea what wind power is all about. He is giving Gamesa (a Spanish company) millions of dollars in tax benefits for putting up windmills. It's not only the windmill itself that is harmful to wildlife. What about the roads they build, the 180' of concrete they put in the ground, or the power lines that have to be cut in? They are horribly inefficient at producing electricty as well.

Maryland's energy crisis has just begun. Under Gov (Dem) Glendening, the deregulation was put into place. For years the state got away with cheap electricity. Guess what? They're now faced with a 72% increase in electricity costs.

[Bill]

I like chocolate chip cookies.

[MF Steve!]

I invented Nintendo.

[Bill]

I prefer Atari... Going oldschool with the gaming systems...
http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/2600/atari2600.JPG

[spyder873]

:popcorn: PSP baby. I not one to argue politics and i am not going to start now. I just vote for the crook who will steal for me(so to speak) not the lobbist (at least the one that i think will):017:

I am a huge fan of thin mints :003:

[2002wranglerX]

I like chocolate chip cookies.

i do too!!!!!!! they're my favorite.

i actually like them without choclate chips too.

[spyder873]

i do too!!!!!!! they're my favorite.

i actually like them without choclate chips too.

And uncooked!

[PatF10]

eh arguing politics is good, thats what made this country people going to the pub at night and talking about what they liked and disliked. Now people just sit in front of the tv. people dont take action anymore, though its probably harder these days

[spyder873]

eh arguing politics is good, thats what made this country people going to the pub at night and talking about what they liked and disliked. Now people just sit in front of the tv. people dont take action anymore, though its probably harder these days

I agree, I just dont do it being they all do things i dont agree with(Rep and Dems and Ind, or green) i dont think any of them are 100% right. I feel the real answers lay somewhere in the middle of them. Plus i dont like pointing fingers without having a solution to the problems at hand and quite frankly, I can't speak on things I know very little of about.(including hear say from all the news media or any party) They tend to tell you what they want you to hear and not the whole story per say.

[DMG]

:popcorn: PSP baby. I not one to argue politics and i am not going to start now. I just vote for the crook who will steal for me(so to speak) not the lobbist (at least the one that i think will):017:

I am a huge fan of thin mints :003:


Unless you are on welfare, none of the crooks are stealing for you. Particularly in this state. By the way, your grammar and spelling remind me of the time I spent in an opium den in Thailand. Good times but no one could speakee engrish.

[spyder873]

I never claimed to spell correctly and I get my point across. so i am not to worried about it

[DMG]

Yeah, I got the point. Except this. What does this mean?

"not the lobbist (at least the one that i think will"

[ezman]

the 180' of concrete... hmm... what about roads... or buildings...
i don't have any numbers but i would venture to say that the use of roads kills more wildlife than any windmill ever could...

el·lip·sis http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fellipses) (ĭ-lĭp'sĭs) Pronunciation Key (http://cache.lexico.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
n. pl. el·lip·ses (-sēz)



The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.

[ezman]

i'm a big fan of SNES

[DMG]

I agree, I just dont do it being they all do things i dont agree with(Rep and Dems and Ind, or green) i dont think any of them are 100% right. I feel the real answers lay somewhere in the middle of them. Plus i dont like pointing fingers without having a solution to the problems at hand and quite frankly, I can't speak on things I know very little of about.(including hear say from all the news media or any party) They tend to tell you what they want you to hear and not the whole story per say.


I think part of the reason for this is that our country has become so polarized, politically in the past 20 years. We are republicans or democrats first and Americans second. The news media is equally polarized. When you turn on Fox news you will get the republican/conservative agenda and when you pick up the New York Times you will get the democrat/liberal viewpoint.

[MF Steve!]

when god gives you lemons, you find a new god.

GRATUITOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY. Powerthirst!

[DMG]

Thanks to all of you cookie/ gaming system fans for crapping in our thread. Remind me to post similar drivel in your exciting threads about gay porn, brass knuckles, and parking military trailers in your yards. :flipoff2:

[spyder873]

I think part of the reason for this is that our country has become so polarized, politically in the past 20 years. We are republicans or democrats first and Americans second. The news media is equally polarized. When you turn on Fox news you will get the republican/conservative agenda and when you pick up the New York Times you will get the democrat/liberal viewpoint.

I agree 100%. I feel they both what a better america but have different roads to get there.

[MF Steve!]

Thanks to all of you cookie/ gaming system fans for crapping in our thread. Remind me to post similar drivel in your exciting threads about gay porn, brass knuckles, and parking military trailers in your yards. :flipoff2:

:044: Soooorry. You can bitch about it all day while we're wheeling!

[DMG]

:044: Soooorry. You can bitch about it all day while we're wheeling!

When we are wheeling I will bitch about the lack of a windshield and a heater. And the horrible sounds that motor makes.

[OverkillZJ]

http://www.ekday.com/blog/files/page11_blog_entry45_1.jpg

[dan58]

Yes, the 180' of concrete is straight DOWN. Ever take a hydrogeology class?

When was the last time you saw a highway kill 100s of birds?

Ever do any studies in virgin habitat and edge habitat? Roads for windmills create entirely NEW habitat.




the 180' of concrete... hmm... what about roads... or buildings...
i don't have any numbers but i would venture to say that the use of roads kills more wildlife than any windmill ever could...

el·lip·sis http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fellipses) (ĭ-lĭp'sĭs) Pronunciation Key (http://cache.lexico.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
n. pl. el·lip·ses (-sēz)


The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.

[ezman]

how many deer, rabbits, squirrels, raccoons, oppossums, dogs, cats, birds, foxes, chipmunks... and any other forest dwelling animal that happens to encounter a road...

of course the roads alter the environment... until man figures out a way to live in quilibrium with nature we are going to destroy whatever we touch...

no i haven't taken a class in hydrogeology...

please inform me of the hydrogeological effects of installing a windmill along a ridgeline of a forest...

[ezman]

POWERTHIRST!!! will make you run like a KENYAN!!!

[mudforblood]

how many deer, rabbits, squirrels, raccoons, oppossums, dogs, cats, birds, foxes, chipmunks... and any other forest dwelling animal that happens to encounter a road...

of course the roads alter the environment... until man figures out a way to live in quilibrium with nature we are going to destroy whatever we touch...

no i haven't taken a class in hydrogeology...

please inform me of the hydrogeological effects of installing a windmill along a ridgeline of a forest...

PLEASE........ REMOVE....... THIS...... BUTTON...... FROM.... YOUR.... KEYBOARD......







Just rip it off and I'll pay pal you a fair price for it......:075::fu: [soup nazi] No dots for you!!!! [soup nazi]

[OverkillZJ]

[soup nazi] No dots for you!!!! [soup nazi]



:043: :043: :043: :043: :043: :043: :043: :043:

[dan58]

how many deer, rabbits, squirrels, raccoons, oppossums, dogs, cats, birds, foxes, chipmunks... and any other forest dwelling animal that happens to encounter a road...

of course the roads alter the environment... until man figures out a way to live in quilibrium with nature we are going to destroy whatever we touch...

no i haven't taken a class in hydrogeology...

please inform me of the hydrogeological effects of installing a windmill along a ridgeline of a forest...

You now admit you have no idea of habitat and edge species.

Read and learn: http://shaffermountain.com/

[Bill]

Hold on now... Don't be a hater. I just went status quo with some of the other stupid shit posted in this thread I just figured I would add some of my own...:overkill:

[OverkillZJ]

This thread started as a joke, I feel it should end as one! http://www.chessandlena.com/img/lolcats/lolcat-ur-not-rubbin-mah-belly.jpg

[gonecheenin]

Yes, the 180' of concrete is straight DOWN. Ever take a hydrogeology class?

When was the last time you saw a highway kill 100s of birds?

Ever do any studies in virgin habitat and edge habitat? Roads for windmills create entirely NEW habitat.


Yet, its a sin against dog & country if we satanistic off-roaders dare set a small width tire off the pavement :119: :076:







:043: :043: :043: :043: :043: :043: :043: :043:



:044: :044: :044: :044: :044:

[OverkillZJ]

:042:


:043: :043: :043: :043: :043: :043:
:044: :044: :044: :044: :044: :044:
:043: :043: :043: :043: :043: :043:
:044: :044: :044: :044: :044: :044:
:043: :043: :043: :043: :043: :043:
:044: :044: :044: :044: :044: :044:

[gonecheenin]

This thread started as a joke, I feel it should end as one! http://www.chessandlena.com/img/lolcats/lolcat-ur-not-rubbin-mah-belly.jpg



MR. KITTY! :icon_syda:

[PatF10]

in reading this topic and what i have talked about with people in the real world i have found that people want change. more than just the republican/democrat change, my issue has been how to make the change, voting seems to just vote in the "lesser of evils" and doesnt solve much. The "polarization" i think is a signal that people want some real change and more than just a different party.

[ezman]

ummm... yes i did admit that... what you didn't get was i was calling you out on your word drops... please explain hydrogeology to me...

what i don't understand is you being an offroad enthusiast and complaining about roads being built in a forest to make cheap, pollution free energy...

180' of concrete straight down... i'm calling shananigans... those towers are less than 300' high... i'd like to see some facts about that one...

[OverkillZJ]

I wonder if I can ban one user from using '...'

I know you're trying to be funny but it's REALLY ****ING ANNOYING!

[dan58]

Ugh.

Hydrology is the science dealing with the occurance and distribution of underground water. And yes, they do require a minimum of 1/2 the height of the windmill for their base.

As for trails, you can't compare OHV trails to the incredibly wide and flat roads they cut for the the semi trucks to deliver parts for the windmills.

[DMG]

FWIW, I have seen the windmill bladed when I lived in Norcal. They are about 100 feet per blade and I am told they are killing endangered birds of prey.

[Bird_Flu]

FWIW, I have seen the windmill bladed when I lived in Norcal. They are about 100 feet per blade and I am told they are killing endangered birds of prey.

I think if an animal is too stupid to avoid 100ft spinning blades then let evolution take it's course. It would be like the Darwin awards for animals.

[2002wranglerX]

the speed that the outside of that blade is turning is pretty impressive. i don't remember the figure, but it was pretty fast!

[Bird_Flu]

the speed that the outside of that blade is turning is pretty impressive. i don't remember the figure, but it was pretty fast!

Oh I'm sure it is and I'm also sure the rotating mass of one of those things has got to be incredible.

[psychobilly]

Windmills I dont know enough about to really comment. I think in theory they sound great but I'm not too keen on how many they have proposed for my surrounding area. I'm neither for nor against since I really dont know a thing about them. I'm gonna take dans word for it though that they dont belong in some areas.


people want change

Yep, but the best change will only come with education. There is too much mass produced B.S. on faux and ALL the other worthless tv news stations where most americans "think" they get their political education. I think every american should do him or herself the favor of taking one college level political science class or at least buy the books. It amazes me how many people dont even know what the constitution does (7th grade civics anyone?). These freakin idiots what to amend it to make it illegeal for gays to marry. Not that I want to marry a man but i know what the constitution does. That would be like going to the doctors office to get an oil change, no make it going to the garage to get a heart transplant. People need to know what executive privilege is (prior to GW it was used once since nixon). GW has cited executive privilege too many times to count, as many as 4 times in a single month. The most interesting I think was in refusing to disclose the details of Cheneys meetings with energy executives. Were freakin idiots for ignoring this and allowing that man to stay in office. That is the only excuse for him being there, we are as a whole, freakin idiots. Educate ourselves politically (even just a little), demand accoountable leaders and "good" change will come.

[psychobilly]

In the news today.

WASHINGTON (AP) — If Congress passes legislation to roll back nearly $18 billion in tax breaks for large oil companies, advisers to President Bush will recommend a veto, the White House said Tuesday.
The tax legislation is scheduled to come up for a vote in the House on Wednesday.
The revenues from oil companies would be used to pay for tax incentives for wind, solar and other renewable energy sources including for ethanol produced from feedstock other than corn, and tax breaks for energy efficiency programs.
A similar tax proposal passed the House last summer, but it was abandoned in the Senate where Republicans overwhelmingly opposed it. Bush said at the time he would veto the measure because it singled out an industry for new taxes.

[dan58]

Can you really blame the oil execs for NOT wanting to give up the tax breaks? They're biz men, first and foremost. They're greedy oil tycoons. It's the same for any industry.

[psychobilly]

nope, I dont blame them one bit, business is business. And I dont really care if it gets a veto or not because its more about a message in my opinion. And that message is that the american people have had enough.

[dan58]

What annoys the shit out of me about the situation was that the oil execs said the same thing when they were brought in to explain $75/barrel.

[psychobilly]

Well, we know the problem extends beyond the oil companies. Thats one thing we should be able to take from these threads. So you cant blame them too much there. The real and most critical issue with gas prices right now is the value of the dollar and inflation. I think we can all agree on that, there is just differing opinions on why its happen, who's to blame and if its worth paying for inflation to be in Iraq.

[The_Internet]

Well, we know the problem extends beyond the oil companies. Thats one thing we should be able to take from these threads. So you cant blame them too much there. The real and most critical issue with gas prices right now is the value of the dollar and inflation. I think we can all agree on that, there is just differing opinions on why its happen, who's to blame and if its worth paying for inflation to be in Iraq.

The semi-gay Frenchman is right!:041:

[ezman]

couldn't really find any info on how deep the bases have to be...

those huge flat roads are unpaved and only used for the initial construction of the turbine...

yes windmills do kill birds and bats...but these guys don't think it's that much...

http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/42442/2903818390062688504S425x425Q85.jpg

[OverkillZJ]

Ain't that some shit ^

[dan58]

Yep, the number of windows compares to the the number of windmills. Good comparison. :rollseyes: I can make any number into my own "statistics." Read the website I posted.

[OverkillZJ]

I don't think birds hitting windmills is really the problem, though, is it? Do you really care that much about the birds?

There's many other issues with windmills, than arguing about... birds.

[dan58]

Pretty much. I'm more worried about the degradation of water quality.

[ezman]

that's why "most" sites are researched for years before they decide if it's going to be a good site for a wind farm...

i find it hard to believe that they would put a 180' concrete pillar into an underground waterway... not saying it's impossible...

oh and i didn't make those numbers up... it was from a fact sheet from the american wind energy association http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets.html

[dan58]

Yep, the wind energy association is a fantastic place to learn the truth. :rolleyes: I'm sure they're not biased in the least.

Do you know how they select sites? They find property owners, sign them to a no-tell clause, and put up a windometer post to determine if it has enough wind energy. If it does, they start the application process, public opinion be damned.

[ezman]

ummm... did you read their site... of course they are one sided... and your shaffermountain site isn't... i read their site... some good info... some blatent propaganda based on NIMBY...

look...

it appears that someone didn't do very good research for the area that they wanted to place the windmills... it does sound like that would be a poor site given the diversity of ecosystems there...

however... to say that windmills are unsafe and take more energy than they produce... that's false... will a wind farm of 100 turbines every produce as much energy as a gigantic coal power plant... no...
but it will produce renewable energy that has a smaller impact on the environment than coal or natural gas does...

saying windmills are bad for the environment is like saying solarpower doesn't work...

i

[mudforblood]

They find property owners, sign them to a no-tell clause, and put up a windometer post to determine if it has enough wind energy. If it does, they start the application process, public opinion be damned.

That's the way it should be. The property owner "OWNS" the property and they should be able to do what they want. It's BS that a bunch of tree huggin bird lovers can tell me what I can do with my property. If I "own" property then I should be able to do what ever I want on my property. Nope, I'll be restricted as long as there is people crying about it doesnt fit into there ideals.

Who says what's right or wrong? The ones that cry and whine the most. Nobody owns their property, they only rent it from the guberment. :076:

Who here owns the mining rights for their property? If you dont then someone could be mining under your house right now.:104:

[dan58]

Never once did I say that I full did not support windmills. I have no problems with them when they're placed in areas that aren't environmentally sensative. I CAN tell you this: those windmill people are sneaky sonesabitches when they want to put them somewhere.

[dan58]

That's the way it should be. The property owner "OWNS" the property and they should be able to do what they want. It's BS that a bunch of tree huggin bird lovers can tell me what I can do with my property. If I "own" property then I should be able to do what ever I want on my property. Nope, I'll be restricted as long as there is people crying about it doesnt fit into there ideals.

Who says what's right or wrong? The ones that cry and whine the most. Nobody owns their property, they only rent it from the guberment. :076:

Who here owns the mining rights for their property? If you dont then someone could be mining under your house right now.:104:

You seem to have misinterpreted; the property owners lease the property, often before they have any idea what will happen if the wind studies show a candidate site.

As for land ownership issues, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Should you be able to destroy habitat of an endangered species, which has one of THE strictest laws in the country? Should you be able to drain a swamp because you want to, even though it would cause streams to dry up in the late summer? Should you be able to dump oils on your property, even though it would pollute your neighbor's well? I can go on, but the gist of this is that laws are in place to protect the human population from itself.