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OverkillZJ
11-13-2008, 02:14 PM
Looks like it's probably going to happen. What do you think?

My thoughts: All 3 companies have made bad decisions, make products Americans don't get to buy, and they get bailed out for FAILING.

The union is not helping the situation either, apparently workers at the big 3 cost twice as much as at the US Toyota plant. That doesn't help anyone.

2002wranglerX
11-13-2008, 02:32 PM
let em go bankrupt and then regather and restart.

They have too much dead wood from all the union bullshit. They have senior union members making over 30 bucks an hour and they basically do nothing.

the gov't bailout for them is really a bailout. at least with the housing bailout the gov't now owns physical properties.

TimMichaels
11-13-2008, 02:32 PM
Probably the biggest problem for the Big 3 is the commitments they've been forced into in the past by the union. Right now on average for every car the Big 3 sells they pay $4,000 to retired employees. There is a huge number of retirees for them because they employed so many before the era of immense automation, as opposed to the overseas automakers who have been here for such a short span that they have really no retirees to support. Not to mention they don't have unions. Kinda kills the profits for GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Until their old workers die its essentially impossible to profit.

So herein lies the real problem: should these companies fold, they have no responsibility to those who have retired. Thousands of people living off of that money will suddenly have nothing. I suppose this is the justification to the bail-out, but I'm not so sure throwing a few billion will solve the problem for any more than a few months and then what?

OverkillZJ
11-13-2008, 02:34 PM
Taxpayer money should not be used to "fix" businesses which have failed, the rest is just conversation.

Muzikman
11-13-2008, 02:36 PM
I am very anti Union. Back in the Carnegie days of steel mills I think Unions might have been a good idea. However, since then there are so many labor laws in place that the original function of the Union is not needed any more. Now it's all about how to get the employees more money, more time off and more benefits.

I am not sure what to do as far as the bail outs. I think it's going to have to happen, but I think there has to be some serious policy changes and as much as folks will not want to hear it, cutting benefits will save them a ton of money.

You have to remember, if any of the three goes under, it doesn't just affect the factories. It trickles down to dealerships, part stores, etc. That is a lot of people out of work.

They are just too big to fail. If any one of the three reaches $0, we are in for a world of hurt.

JeepGeneral
11-13-2008, 02:47 PM
Chrysler has a funny way of looking at them, they discourage the use of the word "bailout" as its a loan and must be paid back.

Tim hit the nail on the head, the major expense for the big 3 are the retirement contracts set up years ago. The only way out of these contracts is bankruptcy, however there is no chance of regrowth if they file. Nobody wants to buy a car from a bankrupt company, especially a company that screwed their grandfather, uncle, cousin, or whoever else they know who worked for them. As a result, foreign cars will flood the market. How does that help stimulate the US economy?

Ronin152
11-13-2008, 02:55 PM
They should use the money for bail outs to stimulate consumer spending. Why would you give money to a company that sucks already? Give money back to people for spending money and give them some incentive to spend. Then they are able to put the money to the best alternative which the market sees. It makes no sense to give money to a company which no one is still going to buy their cars.

2002wranglerX
11-13-2008, 02:58 PM
. As a result, foreign cars will flood the market. How does that help stimulate the US economy?

True, but it will keep those BMW and Toyota plants here in the US open lol.

no i hear what you're saying though. Can't fix what's wrong with the big 3 and there's pretty much no way out

Muzikman
11-13-2008, 02:58 PM
As a result, foreign cars will flood the market. How does that help stimulate the US economy?

The way it stimulates the US economy is because a lot of those "foreign cars" are designed, built and serviced in the US. Hell, my Xterra is more American than most Chrysler vehicles.

Shodan
11-13-2008, 03:00 PM
The big three have managed to f up during the recent good economic times, how can they be trusted to not f up now in a downturn.

Someone look up "Job banks" at GM and the others and see if they deserve a bailout.

Effjae
11-13-2008, 03:19 PM
F them. Their products are generally inferior and they set themselves up for failure. I wouldn't buy a car from the big 3 anyhow. My big 3 has always been Honda, Toyota and Nissan. I had enough american cars to learn not to buy them anymore. I do miss my mustang convertible tho. :P

Muzikman
11-13-2008, 03:37 PM
Again, if all three go under, you and your Toyota will be in a world of hurt any way. I'll repeat, they are too big to fail.

JeepGeneral
11-13-2008, 03:39 PM
They should use the money for bail outs to stimulate consumer spending. Why would you give money to a company that sucks already? Give money back to people for spending money and give them some incentive to spend. Then they are able to put the money to the best alternative which the market sees. It makes no sense to give money to a company which no one is still going to buy their cars.

They're giving money to a company to keep workers employed there. That's a better option than giving money to people who have been laid off and do not have a job.

JeepGeneral
11-13-2008, 03:42 PM
I'm not looking at the quality of the vehicle they manufacture. Thats an opinion not a fact. Its a fact that there are (can possibly say "were" in the present economic times) more US workers employeed by the Big 3 in the US than all other foreign manufacturers who have plants in the US.

2002wranglerX
11-13-2008, 03:52 PM
F them. Their products are generally inferior and they set themselves up for failure. I wouldn't buy a car from the big 3 anyhow. My big 3 has always been Honda, Toyota and Nissan. I had enough american cars to learn not to buy them anymore. I do miss my mustang convertible tho. :P

You could combine them! you could have an IFS rig with VTEC that has nismo stickers all over it!

Bird_Flu
11-13-2008, 04:08 PM
Again, if all three go under, you and your Toyota will be in a world of hurt any way. I'll repeat, they are too big to fail.

I agree with Muzikman here, I don't know the exact figures employed by the big 3 but it would HURT big time if all 3 went under. I believe you would instantly have hundreds of thousands of employees out of work at the same time. That's a lot of people to hit unemployment all at once.

As much as I hate government bailouts, like the airline industry, the Big 3 failing would be an economic disaster on the scale of which we've never seen.

However I think no matter what happens with the bailout at least one if not more will fail anyway. The Big 3 simply have too much in retirement costs to be profitable for a lot of years. It's only going to get worse when the Baby Boomers start to retire.

Ronin152
11-13-2008, 04:44 PM
Yeah that would be a large amount of people unemployed but pretty much your just paying all the unemployment benefits to the company in order to keep them in business. By just giving them money to keep the people employed thats not really doing anything for the business. It would be better if we just paid all the unemployed people the money and let it fail. Its clear that the big 3 are extremely inefficient and just suck overall and just nursing them along does nothing. I saw let it fail, people will just have to learn new skills or become educated to do other things. The U.S. is moving from Manufacturing towards services and we might as well make the transition faster.

Muzikman
11-13-2008, 04:59 PM
There would be about 1 million people directly affected from just GM alone. That does not take into account all the ancillary jobs that would be lost. That's a lot of people.

Bird_Flu
11-13-2008, 05:07 PM
There would be about 1 million people directly affected from just GM alone. That does not take into account all the ancillary jobs that would be lost. That's a lot of people.

OK that's a lot of people out of work at the same time. I would say counting the ancillary jobs you're probably looking at a 1% jump in the unemployment rate from one company going bust.

Ronin152
11-13-2008, 05:13 PM
The only way I can see them really succeeding is if they get rid of GMC, Pontiac, and maybe Saturn and just focusing on one regular and one luxury brand. I think if they make their product line smaller they can focus more on quality and really emphasize this to the public.

Effjae
11-13-2008, 05:13 PM
It is all a shame. I remember when most stuff was made in America. I miss those days. I blame crappy trade agreements, greedy execs, and outsourcing. I deal w/ huge multi billion dollar corps every day and 9 times out of 10 when I call their IT folks, they are in Canada or over seas.

Ronin152
11-13-2008, 05:19 PM
It really is a natural progression. Back in the 1900s everything was made here. Once people started to make money and were able to get an education they didn't want to work in a factory any more. They became accountants, managers, and engineers. So now the manufacturing has moved to other countries where they were living in poverty before and now are working their way up the ladder. I really don't miss anything about stuff being made in America. Now I can get the same HDTV much cheaper than if it was made here. Plus all those people who lost jobs to outsourcing probaly have better jobs now.

Effjae
11-13-2008, 05:22 PM
It really is a natural progression. Back in the 1900s everything was made here. Once people started to make money and were able to get an education they didn't want to work in a factory any more. They became accountants, managers, and engineers. So now the manufacturing has moved to other countries where they were living in poverty before and now are working their way up the ladder. I really don't miss anything about stuff being made in America. Now I can get the same HDTV much cheaper than if it was made here. Plus all those people who lost jobs to outsourcing probaly have better jobs now.

Very good point.

DMG
11-13-2008, 05:56 PM
Part of the problem is our consumerism. We have to have more stuff and fancier stuff. Then a big house to hold our stuff. We want it cheap and don't think enough about where it comes from or what we have to do to get it. For example, oil and credit.

Muzikman
11-13-2008, 06:04 PM
Tell that to the thousands of mill hunks who lost their jobs in Pittsburgh back int he 80's and who are probably to this day not making as much as they were back then.

With your logic there must be an ass load of accountants, managers and engineers out there.

It's not the workers who don't want the factory jobs, it's the execs decision to shave money by moving them to countries where work is about 100 times cheaper than here.

Now, there is a lot of blame to pass around. I first blame the unions. Then I blame trade agreements. Then I blame the corp execs.

If it wasn't for Unions pushing up the pay rates, vacation days and benefits folks might not be making as much money or have as many days off or have a huge pension plan, but they would still have a job.

The current trade agreements allowed companies to move factories outside the US and not have to worry about the costs of getting the items back into the US.

The company execs have one thing that they need to worry about...the bottom line. The good ones will do everything within the law to increase profits. I can't blame them for sending jobs outside of the US to save money. After all, it's legal, so they are doing nothing wrong. Besides, if it wasn't for Unions, they might not have to do this.

So don't go thinking the reason there are no mfg jobs is because folks all ran out and became lawyers.

Ronin152
11-13-2008, 06:13 PM
I am not saying everyone did this. I am just saying in every country there is a natural progression from agriculture -> manufacturing -> services / higher education / tech. It is not an overnight thing. I am just saying a person in China, Vietnam, or Cambodia would kill for a job in a Plant and not to work on a farm. In America most people don't want to work in a plant or in the fields. I bet that some people do have better jobs the ones that don't are just either lazy or are scared of learning new things and just never did. If the mills are so great why don't you see people not going to college and going to work in the mills? Why did our grandparents come here work hard in plants and mills in order to send there kids to college. They want someting better for their kids. Thats exactly what people in China want. They want to work their way up from poverty to having something better.

Sycotik Skier
11-13-2008, 06:26 PM
Someone graduated high school and went straight to the mill. worked there thirty years so they'd be roughly 48. After that much time they'd be living alright money wise. Chances are even if they went to college and got a degree they'd probably still be taking a huge pay cut. But not everyone can drop a job and go back to school. With some people manual labor is all they know, hence why they work in a laborer's position. When people dedicate their whole life to a job and then instantly lose their job it's going to be very difficult to move onto another job.

I agree with the unions being unnecasary anymore. A perfect example is the south butler school district strike right now. They already have excellent benefits and pay yet they are being even greedier

EddyB
11-14-2008, 01:40 AM
Those of you that don't think unions are neccesary, have you ever been in one or a trade that has union counterparts? From a safety standpoint( in my trade at least) they are very neccesary. And yes I've worked both sides of the fence. Not all unions are the same so please don't say unions on a whole are unneccesary.

Muzikman
11-14-2008, 08:37 AM
How are Unions needed from a safety stand point? There are way too many labor laws and OSHA that will keep you safe at work. There is no need for a Union to do it. If you are at work and feel that conditions are unsafe, call OSHA, they will respond pretty damn quick.

I still feel no union is needed these days.

EddyB
11-14-2008, 10:17 AM
The only reason that OSHA is still around is unions have lobbyed to keep them. Bush thought OSHA was unneccesary and tried to have it disbanded. OSHA is so undermanned that they can't visit every job going on, so they have to be called. What do you think is going to happen to your job when your boss finds out someone on the site called OSHA. Funny thing is, is that unions make sure OSHA exists and they only visit union jobs. I'm assuming you answered no to my questions above and thats why you think OSHA will keep my safe. I did some stupid ass shit for $10 an hour when I worked non union. Sure I could have said no, and then went and looked for a new job. Oh and no benifits. Now I have benifits, an anuity, and a pension plan. The wage that I'm able to live on is kinda nice too.

I never said the UAW was right. I just asked to not have all unions lumped together.

Muzikman
11-14-2008, 11:16 AM
I still say that Unions are not needed and I'll stand by that. Have I been in a Union...no and thank god for that. I have however worked manual labor jobs. I have worked for small wages and no benefits. I personally think that if a company does not want to offer health benefits, a pension plan or a pay raise every year, it should be their right and it's the employees choice to work there or not.

I can point to more harm that unions have caused business and industry than they have done good. Sure, you as an employee love the union as they give you that nice pay, those health benefits, those nice long vacations and that hefty pension plan. However, how do you expect a company to stay in business when they have to dish out all that money to keep you happy?

Ronin152
11-14-2008, 12:55 PM
So everyone should be made to pay more just because you think you deserve an annuity, pension plan, and benefits?

Effjae
11-14-2008, 01:09 PM
I still say that Unions are not needed and I'll stand by that. Have I been in a Union...no and thank god for that. I have however worked manual labor jobs. I have worked for small wages and no benefits. I personally think that if a company does not want to offer health benefits, a pension plan or a pay raise every year, it should be their right and it's the employees choice to work there or not.

I can point to more harm that unions have caused business and industry than they have done good. Sure, you as an employee love the union as they give you that nice pay, those health benefits, those nice long vacations and that hefty pension plan. However, how do you expect a company to stay in business when they have to dish out all that money to keep you happy?

This seems like a bit of a stretch.

Muzikman
11-14-2008, 01:13 PM
How so?

Wrecker
11-14-2008, 01:42 PM
Unions keep skilled laborers organized and ready to work They offer training. They keep a pool of known and skilled workers ready. I do not feel that a long term employee needs a union. But construction from the equipment operators to the laborers are better employees for it. The are treated well and because they stay doing a job that some people do not give enough credit to.

A company from out of town gets a contract because they are low bid. Do they have to spend time and money finding skilled workes that are true to there word on history? No they just call the hall and they have a work force.

There the pensions and such stay with the local. The company does not have to keep thsi funded. If the unions where not in the Skilled Trades we would have some shit construction projects. And they would cost more to fix. Most problems now are with the design or cost of materials to do it right.

And no I have never worked in a union.

Muzikman
11-14-2008, 02:01 PM
Then don't call them a union, call them contractors. That's basically what they are then. A company comes in and needs workers, contract them out.

Why do the grocery baggers at Giant Eagle have a union? Why do teachers have a union. Why the hell are the IT folks in Westmoreland county on a Union.

Even in my line of work I have had to deal with union workers and I'll tell you, every single one of them sucked and I would dread to ever have to do it again.

Story #1. I was sent to NJ to setup a small data center and computers. The site was being newly built and the work force was Union. Now, I go to install a router and a couple switches into a rock. I am told that I can not do that, it's a Union job. So there I am sitting on my damn ass while some guy take over 3 hours to do a less than 1 hours worth of work, not counting the 1 hour lunch brake he took.

Story #2. Convention center. I was there to help the company setup for a show. We had a couple computers to setup at the booth to demo stuff. The booth they gave us did not have enough power. They would not let us plug in a simple strip plug or let us run another extension cord over to the booth (following the one that was already there). They said they had to do it. The booth went the first day of a 3 day convention without enough power. That same show they broke out back drop because we were not allowed to carry the stuff up stairs ourselves, a union crew had to carry it up and set it up.

I have more stories too.

Wrecker
11-14-2008, 02:24 PM
I have stories also. But think of it this way when it comes to the cord story. Do you know everything on that circuit? Do you have the ins coverage for any damage you cause by overloading? Have you heard of lawsuits for someone hurting their back carrying something on someone else property? As a vendor they usually do not check comp coverage because of the fact that they are alot of self employeed people.

When it come to tempory skilled workers a Union does have a place.

Muzikman
11-14-2008, 02:35 PM
Well, then kepp the f'ed up Unions and make the lazy ass people do their ****ing jobs! I bust my ass for the money I make, I don't want to have to wait around for some jack ass to take a 15 minute smoke brake then go get coffee, then go talk to his buddies, then take a shit, then watch the pretty women go by, then maybe get to my stuff only to take another smoke break. These folks have too much security.

I feel the same way about tenured teachers/professors.

BigDukeSix
11-14-2008, 04:25 PM
I saw a documentary last night about a town in Indiana where pretty much everyone worked for GM. The whole town is dead.
Anyone that grew up in Pittsburgh over the age of 35 should rmemeber the mills closing. It was a fawkin' frightening time. All of Western Pa. fell to shit. Proud hard working people brought to their knees. Anyone drive through Braddock or Rankin lately?
You're pretty high up on the perch you look down on everyone from Musicman. It must be nice to be so fawkin' superior to every laborer in the country.

Muzikman
11-14-2008, 05:06 PM
It's real nice and spell the ****in' name right.

Again, I had to work with people that bitched and complained about how when they worked in the Mill (or the railroad) they made more money, did less work and now they do more work for less pay. I got sick of hearing that shit. Maybe if those people would have actually put forth some effort and did their job, they might still have one. But hey, they didn't need to, the Union was looking out for them right?

SirFuego
11-14-2008, 05:11 PM
When did Muzikman claim he was superior to all laborers?

The idea of unions is fine to me, but the execution could be much better in many instances. It's great that they lobby for safe work places and get their employees benefits that the employers might not provide otherwise. Although it's rather disturbing that the employers wouldn't provide this stuff to their employees without a union forcing them to...

The tremendous job security and structured raises usually associated with unions typically cause a decrease in productivity because "going the extra mile" is not rewarded (and in some cases frowned upon). That said, the lack of productivity is a byproduct of the original goal of the union -- to protect the employee. For a college professor, tenure is intended to eliminate situations of the professor getting fired because of "outrageous" research. Likewise, almost guaranteed job security lets the employee speak their mind without fear of getting fired (citing the previous OSHA example mentioned). However, an unfortunate side effect of this is that it reduces motivation for many employees to be as productive as they could.

As for that town in Indiana, well, are you really surprised? Living in a small town that is reliant upon one major industry (or company in many cases), you take upon the inherent risk of being screwed if the company or industry goes under. Take cities like Pittsburgh and Buffalo that pretty much focused on a single industry -- steel. Once steel left, there really wasn't anything for the economy to fall back on. Why do you never hear about cities like NY, San Fran, LA, Chicago, etc "struggling"? Economic diversity.

BigDukeSix
11-14-2008, 05:18 PM
Unbelieveable. You've got to be kidding me right Musicman? Do some research into labor union history, and what they have done for America before you say anything else stupid.

BigDukeSix
11-14-2008, 05:19 PM
Anyone who claims to know how worthless unions are ever worked in a union shop?

Muzikman
11-14-2008, 05:22 PM
I have already said that I have never been Union. And trust me, I know my US history and if you have read my damn posts you might see that I claim Unions are not needed NOW. I didn't say they were never needed.

I have also stated that folks who are union usually like it for the exact reasons I have states.

Now, let me ask this. Do you think GM would be in the situation they are now if they were non-union? Do you think there might still be a steel industry in Pittsburgh if the mills were non-union?

BigDukeSix
11-14-2008, 05:27 PM
They are needed now. Without the union where I work it would be a real mess. How good of a group of teachers do you think your school district would have if they had no negotiating ability? How about the city cops, firefighters or paramedics? How about nurses?
Not to say there isnt any problems inside unions but without them certain jobs would be really screwed.
I drove an armored car when I got out of the Army. It paid a little better than minumum wage. The same company has a union shop in Conn., they made double what we did to start. The difference between conditions in the two were night and day.

Muzikman
11-14-2008, 05:35 PM
Ok, so you took a shitty job out of the Army. I assume you found a better one and I assume that the company found someone to replace you. If it was that bad and the company couldn't find anyone who wanted the job, then they would change their policy. They don't need a union to make them change it.

Noe one instance above do I see the need for a union.

So far the only person who made is good point about unions is Steve (Wrecker). If that is the type of union EddyB is talking about, then his point is taken.

BigDukeSix
11-14-2008, 05:52 PM
The company I worked for out of the Army is out of business now.

As for where I work now, without a union it would really suck.

So, sinbce you already threw the auto workers, steel workers, teachers and rail road laborers on the trash dump,you think there is no need for a union for nurses, cops, paramedics and firefighters?

Ever talk to anyone who worked in a coal mine? How about the steamfitters, boiler makers and piledrivers?

Muzikman
11-14-2008, 06:04 PM
steamfitters, boiler makers and piledrivers? <-- those I would group into the group of people Steve was talking about. Do I think they need to be unionized, no. Do they need to be organized for the reasons Steve mentions, sure.

I do not think nurses need to be unionized. I don't think Firefighters, cops or paramedics do either.

I am not sure how your job would be so much worse without a union. I can see your pay being lower, your vacation time being less and maybe you will have to pay into your benefits.

I mean damn, you know how much more I would be making right now if I was in a union. I am making below average for my job title. Does it suck, sure, but they are paying me what they can pay me. If I hated it that much, I would look for another job.

Poor employers are poor employers. If they want to keep a work force then they will keep their employees happy (one way or another). If they can't they won't have any workers and the company goes under.

However, the opposite is true too. If a company can not afford union labor, it will go under.

EddyB
11-14-2008, 06:11 PM
Think about this then. Non union carpenters make a decent wage nowadays. Why? Because they have to pay their people better to compete with the wages that union workers make. One of the main reasons that people don't become union is because they don't want to take the drug test.

You want some examples? How about the convocation center at Pitt. The electricians and roofers were the only trades that weren't union. I'll give you three guesses which two contractors were always behind schedule.

What vacation time? I get a much as i can afford every year.

Nothing I say is going to sway you. You have a personal beef with unions because somebody didn't want you taking their work.

As far as having a pension, an anuity, and health benifits. I think everybody should have them. Lucky for me I belong to an organization that ensures I get them.

Thanks to those that don't belong to unions and understand that they have their place in the world for backing me up.

Muzikman
11-14-2008, 06:55 PM
No, I have a beef with unions because they **** up companies.

Sycotik Skier
11-14-2008, 07:24 PM
I'm in a non union laborer position now. My employer pays 100% of my health insurance and gives you two weeks of vacation after working there for a year. It's a very safe workplace. OSHA visits us about once a month. I have worked union work and I do not like it.

Bill
11-14-2008, 07:29 PM
Ok...

My take on this is simple. It is give and take. Some places still need unions, while others do not. You cannot simply say that ALL unions are not needed. Some employers would walk all over the employee without the protection that a union and / or union contract bring. In other places there is no real need for a union environment. There are places where employees have excellent benefits, excellent wages, etc... if there is a union at those places you can normally thank the union for negotiating the wages, benefits, etc.

I understand Jason's bitch about the "union mentality" and even some of the statements regarding the behavior of the union employees. I have observed this myself, but the issue at hand isn't the union - it is the employee. If an employee is an ass, the employee should be disciplined. You cannot blame the union for the crappy employee.

I guess what I am trying to say here is the union normally provides the employees with better benefits, wages, and working conditions. The union employees sometimes behave in a manner that makes the union look bad.

MF Steve!
11-14-2008, 07:49 PM
I'm proud to be a Union Carpenter. Wether I've worked with them in the past two years or not, I've still kept my dues paid, and attended training. I've worked on a ton of jobs locally, and a decent number of them out of town also. You can't blame unions for peoples actions. If someone is an asshole, they're always going to be one, regardless of their job. Unions are not for everyone, but I can say this: It all depends on which union you belong to. A union is only as good as its structure. Carpenters are proud, and take more pride in their work than I can even describe.

Unless you've been in a well structured union, I could say you don't really know much about them. As much as you may read on the internet, or hear from the media, I can assure you it is not what you see or read. We bust our asses up front to get trained, proudly lose four weeks of pay, per year, during the four year apprenticeship to attend class, and keep up with current building products. Time is money in the industry, and wether you realize it or not, Union contractors will blow the doors off of anyone else out there.

Sometimes things do get behind schedule, but its not typically a fault of unions, especially in the construction trades. There are always plenty of members to man jobs. Its typically some non union suit fcuk that doesn't know how to properly schedule, or slacks off, because they're too busy playing with their pudd on PghOffRoad, and not doing their desk job. Unions do not fcuk compaines up, the owners of companies do it to themselves. Another aspect you would not understand, unless you were in the trade to witness it first hand. You'll see owners show up in different brand new cars every day of the week...watch where they end up. Then you'll see owners show up in a mid 90's pick-up truck, in work clothes, delivering tools and materials to keep their guys going. Theres a big difference, don't ever say a union ruins a company, when ownership greediness is the number one reason for union company failure.

You're living in the wrong city if you have a problem with unions. This city was built on a union mentality, and you'll never get rid of it. If you have such a beef with the unions, maybe you should stop down to Neville Island and visit the Carpenters Training and Apprenticeship center. They can give you a free tour and a good history of how the Carpenters union was born, and grew throughout this area. Or maybe you already know all of that, since you seem to know lots about every single thing out there.

OverkillZJ
11-15-2008, 02:07 AM
If I say what I think, a lot of you won't talk to me again. :overkill:

OverkillZJ
11-15-2008, 02:29 AM
I saw a documentary last night about a town in Indiana where pretty much everyone worked for GM. The whole town is dead.
Anyone that grew up in Pittsburgh over the age of 35 should rmemeber the mills closing. It was a fawkin' frightening time. All of Western Pa. fell to shit. Proud hard working people brought to their knees. Anyone drive through Braddock or Rankin lately?
You're pretty high up on the perch you look down on everyone from Musicman. It must be nice to be so fawkin' superior to every laborer in the country.

That's no suprise. They're like gold mining towns, they do one thing, and it's typically what caused the town to be created in the first place. Labor will go where labor can be done, that's just reality. When it's no longer economical or possible to be there, it's done. If Pittsburgh no longer had a need for network techs, believe me, I wouldn't be here any longer.

As for high horse, give me a break, you've gotten on your high horse more than you're talked Jeeps on here, not that I've been a better example the last few months.

I don't like (most) unions. Many of us need to not only take off "pay time" AKA work for training / education, but we pay for it, out of pocket; I do this many times a year and believe me, it is NOT cheap. But I know that no one is responsible for me, except for me, and this is not only what I need to do in order to do my job, keep my clients happy, but that is what I need to do in order to be productive and deliver the goods, and put money in my pocket, food on my table, and a roof over my head.

I understand why unions were created, and I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but I feel that many unions exist now days for nothing but bullying for higher pay, in markets that simply can't support it. This does not go for all unions, but I don't claim to know enough to know which are for the better, and which want to suck companies dry and be sure they never make any profit.

I feel that like most things in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle, but you fawkers ganging up on Muzikman is rather baseless, when his arguing against the union specific to this thread is fairly accurate.

EddyB
11-15-2008, 07:14 AM
All I asked was that he recognize that they should not all be lumped together as bad. Mabye he's a racist.

MF Steve!
11-15-2008, 10:06 AM
Unions don't bully for higher wages, they fight for fair labor rates. Using carpenters as an example, I don't see $29/hr. out of line one bit. There are lots of non-union prevailing wage jobs out there where people are making an average of $10/hr. MORE than unions of the same trade.

I guess what it comes down to is the fact that I dislike being talked down to about something that built this city, UNIONS. I'd never say I did it all, but I'm proud to say I take part in it. The streets you drive on, the offices you sit in, and the stores you shop at, about 80% + union made. You sure can tell what parts of the area were built by he other 20% or so.

gonecheenin
11-15-2008, 10:11 AM
I was union for a while & work with many members of the Local 66 everyday

The union is not the problem, they are actually powerless to stop any company from doing/getting what it wants AS LONG AS THE COMPANY DOES IT FAIRLY AS AGREED, or makes its wish's concrete @ contract time!

Paywise, if what the union is asking for is unreasonable, they simply don't get the contract or work. Sure strikes hurt the company if it's trying to bully the union, but they also hurt the union members so it better be a worthwhile & sensible cause (especially in todays job market).


From the outside the problem does appear to be the union "bullying" or unfairly protecting shitty workers. The truth is the company lets that happen if it occurs. If your a shitty employee you can be fired - union or no union. All the union does is force the employer to calmly & systematically run you through a disciplinary process until the employee either straightens up & saves his job, or finish's getting himself fired.

The problem comes into play when the company/supervisor's are too lazy or dimwhitted to discipline someone properly - then the employee can basically laugh in their face & do what they want.

Here's a quick example; A guy with 35 years of service where I work got 3 day's off (the last step before being fired) via one of the big boss's the other day for something the worker was not even guilty of. This big boss is responsible for the service operations of the entire 27 locations, so he of all people should know the proper way to handle employee problems AND should know to investigate well before accusations are presented. Turned out that not only was 2-3 process's skipped in this employee's punishment, on top of that HE WASN"T EVEN INVOLVED! So after he won his filed grievence through the unoin reps, he got 3 extra days paid vacation out of the mess & the big boss looks like a retard for not knowing the basic rules of his own work force.

THAT is a situation where the union is still needed today. Sure there are resources available in the legal world that would allow a non-union person to possibly have the same result, but not without massive involvement & time on the wronged employee's end.

gonecheenin
11-15-2008, 10:20 AM
Oh, and BTW:

I am no longer union because I got tired of the in fighting. My union brothers spent more time trying to stab each other in the back cause they thought someone else might be getting a better deal, then protecting each other from company oppression.

I went to the company side to get away from that & am much happier. However, I am now much more carefull of my actions & way more prevelant to do as I'm told & STFU knowing that I have nowhere near the amount of protection from asshole boss's that I once did.

Plus after looking at other companys in my industry that are non-union, I will say that I'm sure I would make nowhere near the amount of money I do in my position if not for the unions influence on overall pay scale & the fact that I started out in the union first (I took my pay rate with me when I went company). That is a great associated union benefit as far as I'm concerned & justified too IMHO. There's no way doing what I do should pay the same that some douch @ NAPA makes, who doesn't even know how to get me the right wiper blades for my truck :019:

OverkillZJ
11-15-2008, 10:59 AM
I never should've mentioned union, this thread derailed in a bad way.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/union-cat-is-on-a-break.jpg

OverkillZJ
11-15-2008, 11:01 AM
And come on, there are some unions we should all love!
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gzz9h7ei9c54/610x.jpg

SirFuego
11-15-2008, 11:01 AM
If your a shitty employee you can be fired - union or no union. All the union does is force the employer to calmly & systematically run you through a disciplinary process until the employee either straightens up & saves his job, or finish's getting himself fired.
That's the way it should be. However, the process for college professors (and other tenured employees at colleges) are structured (at least a couple colleges I know about) so that it is almost impossible to get them fired -- even for poor performance.

I went to college for computer engineering and I had a class from a professor that was tenured a looooong time ago. Our class was in digital system design -- essentially learning how hardware communicates with each other. We were learning technology that was obsolete in 1982! This was 2004 when I took the class. I felt that the class was a complete waste of my time because we could have learned the same "concepts" by learning technology that is actually relevant in today's society. It was incredibly obvious he didn't do a damn thing to prepare for the class (probably since 1982) since he had no idea how USB, wireless and other technologies worked. I still have contacts with some of the professors after I graduated and they said that the dean had been urging him to retire for years, because they had no grounds on which to fire him due to his tenure. There are other instances, but this is one that stuck out in my head.

That said, this one specific industry I am referring to that needs union reform.

BigDukeSix
11-15-2008, 11:25 AM
A union must represent its membership equally. If a local union official came out and said on the record that a union member was a shitty employee or didn't do his best to represent the shitty employee when discipline is pending for poor performance, it opens up the union for leagl action by misrepresenting the member.
However, I've seen union members fired numerous times. Somemes they get their job back, sometimes they don't (depending on the charges). But as managers, discipline is levied agaisnt poor employees with the hope that is changes the unwanted or poor behavior that generated the disciplinary proceedings to begin with. Because, as an employer, you dont hire people with the knowldge that they will be shitty employees. You always hope they can come around.

When I started my job, I made $8.25 an hour. It was two bucks more than the armored car job and gave me benefits. The first day i was there a inmate was stabbed about fifty feet from me with a two foot piece of steel. It went through his back and stuck out his stomach. In the fight that happened after, his intestines popped out of his stomach. He held them in his hands and WALKED to the infimary. I thought,"what the fawk did I just get into" (like I said, it was my first day, I wasnt used to the shit that happened in prison yet). In the almost nineteen years since,the crazy shit that has happened could fill a book. The DOC got a union in the late 70's. Until then, there was no medical benefits for corrections officers and people at Giant Eagle made comparable money. Without the union, I could only imagine what it would be like. But then again, looking for someone to plug some shit in for a convention center display is stressful too I guess.

Hey Matt, I love you man. Let's race high horses.

OverkillZJ
11-15-2008, 11:30 AM
Hey Matt, I love you man. Let's race high horses.


ROFL, that'd actually be pretty funny.

BigDukeSix
11-15-2008, 11:31 AM
I knew you'd like that. The scary thing is that we are more alike than you would care to admit on a public forum.

OverkillZJ
11-15-2008, 11:43 AM
You are an angry nerd! :overkill:

BigDukeSix
11-15-2008, 11:50 AM
I wish I was more nerdy, I wouldn't need that union security! Wait a minute, I'm not in the union anymore.

13below0
11-16-2008, 04:31 PM
So what was this topic about again? the big 10 on espn? Oh yeah the big 3. Opinions are like a$$holes everybody has 1. Be it right or wrong! If any of them go under the US is "fawked". Its not only GM, it is everybody that the company is on 90 days with. The industry goes way deeper than most people even care to know. SO its a huge trickel down effect. I go under, and dont pay my bills than so does the guy I buy products from because I owe $XXXXXXXXX amount of dollars and now he cant pay his people or suppliers etc. As for the whole Union thing WOW! Milkdud or whatever you call yourself you claim right in our avatar that you where dockers :icon_frown: so I'm guessing you dont know shit about the working class scumbags. I Dont work for a union company. I even disagree with alot of what SOME unions do. But to lump them all together, you should leave the wastern PA area and go live on fantasy island.

Wrecker
11-17-2008, 08:10 AM
Good point about the far reachs of the industry. After 911 and the airlines took such a hit because the loss of business. That industry still hasn't come back to where it was. Look how much it hurt the econmy around here. Many jobs were lost. More people left the area. Municipal projects canceled. Just imagine if it happens to another industry.

OverkillZJ
11-17-2008, 09:51 AM
This thread is so derailed I'm not even going to discuss what it was about at first.

Lame.

Muzikman
11-17-2008, 10:30 AM
Milkdud or whatever you call yourself you claim right in our avatar that you where dockers :icon_frown: so I'm guessing you dont know shit about the working class scumbags.

Just because I no longer work a manual labor job, does not mean I did not at some time in my life.

Muzikman
11-17-2008, 12:42 PM
This is the kind of job security I am talking about.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08318/927609-100.stm

Sycotik Skier
11-17-2008, 03:27 PM
that is bullshit