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Thread: Government health care

  1. #1
    Trail Leader Christopher's Avatar
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    Government health care

    Just a heads up.
    Washington is going to be ramming Gov heathcare up our rears by Chrismas eve.

    The taxes start next year and the "" benefits haha"" start later (like 2013-2014 I think)

    It may do no good but I'm calling my senators anyway to tell them I'm against it and express my willingness to tear it down.

    Call and wish them a merry Christmas
    Saved by Grace

    There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation. – James Madison

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    yup, get ready to bend over!

    i'll sum up the bill for you. it costs a trillion dollars and basically mandates that you pay for AND MANDATES THAT YOU MUST HAVE health insurance, but the low life pieces of shit sitting on gov't assistance will continue to get it free.

    oh, and it may or may not pay for abortions.... we'll see how it comes together.
    taking unsafe rigs to a whole other level

  3. #3
    Trail Leader Christopher's Avatar
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    Well you will face jail or fines if you do not purchase health insurance.
    And it is so good that members of congress are not required to participate.
    just us slave/subjects.

    It will be heathcare with the style of low income/projects type housing
    Saved by Grace

    There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation. – James Madison

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    Less posting, more wheeling! notmYJ's Avatar
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    I'm one of the lucky ones with a "cadilac" plan so I get to pay even more money!!! Whoo friggin whooo!

    The only better than getting fawked by your government is getting fawked twice as hard.

    My advice... Fire them. Everylast one of them. Not just at the end of this term, but at the end of EVERY term. They literally bought the votes to make this pass. It is disgusting to see the crooks saying how great it is to get this passed. They didn't do it for the people or by the people. They did it for themselves. They wrote the check, now we have to cover it.

    FIRE THEM ALL!!!!
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    ^ Exactly they need to remember who they work for !!
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    PghOffRoad Forum Addict! Bird_Flu's Avatar
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    I'm sure one of my plans would be considered Cadillac plans as well, but it's not for lack of my paying for it. I wish I knew how much mine cost, I think the official line I heard is if your plan costs $23k or more per year (Congressmen's is $15K per year funny how that worked out) then you get taxed. I pay through the nose for mine (roughly 7% of my salary) but I do get very nice benefits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMG View Post
    Considering that DC voted for Marion Barry after seeing him on video smoking crack with a hooker, I say the less input they have in our system, the better.

  7. #7
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    looks like it's going through.

    **** YOU DEMS

    not 1 repub voted for it
    taking unsafe rigs to a whole other level

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    Trail Leader Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2002wranglerX View Post
    looks like it's going through.

    **** YOU DEMS

    not 1 repub voted for it
    It's ""progressives"" Ry on both sides party means nothing at this point

    Repubs have stood for nothing for so long they rendered themselves useless.

    They have "seen the light" too late. Remember...
    I had to abandon free market principles to save it. (beginning of bailouts)
    Mccain being for illegal alien amnesty because it is good for business
    etc etc

    These are going to be interesting times.
    There is alot of talk lately on how to kill this and starve this beast (gov)

    I love how this is sold as reducing defecit when Obama has quadrupled it since taking office

    in this same session they are raising their own credit limit because they are out of money again

    This president and congress hates the makeup of this country and they are set on tearing it down.

    how many will sit and let it happen.

    my favorite gov hand-out quote..
    "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”- Samuel Adams
    Saved by Grace

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  9. #9
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    my fault. Libtards. or progressively retarded
    taking unsafe rigs to a whole other level

  10. #10
    Trail Leader Christopher's Avatar
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    Win hearts and minds by educating people with the truth.
    Leave the name calling to those who cannot defend their ideals.
    Saved by Grace

    There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation. – James Madison

  11. #11
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    Let me see... Hostile takeover of manufacturing, hostile takeover of the housing industry, hostile takeover of banking, utter depletion of our national treasure, and now a hostile takeover of our health and medical system. We are now their property?
    Once enough control is obtained, the weeding out of the undesireables will be easy.
    In the thirties, people would come back from Germany with horror stories that no one would believe. The rest of the world was in denial. I keep hearing "That could never happen here."
    Zombies.
    What do we do? An don't tell me to vote. I do.
    Wow, that was close!

  12. #12
    Less posting, more wheeling! notmYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by machinerguy View Post
    Let me see... Hostile takeover of manufacturing, hostile takeover of the housing industry, hostile takeover of banking, utter depletion of our national treasure, and now a hostile takeover of our health and medical system. We are now their property?
    Once enough control is obtained, the weeding out of the undesireables will be easy.
    In the thirties, people would come back from Germany with horror stories that no one would believe. The rest of the world was in denial. I keep hearing "That could never happen here."
    Zombies.
    What do we do? An don't tell me to vote. I do.
    That's the problem. There is very little we can do. Our elected officials have their own adgendas, and will do what ever they have to to further themselves. Our government was bought and paid for a long time ago.

    Individually, there is not much we can do. Collectively, we need a grass roots uprising of elected officials that are for the people, by the people. Then when we get congress filled with politicians that are for the people, we vote them out, and do it again.

    We are in a very precarious time. The government is such that it has become so corrupt, and ignorant of the people that it is on the verge of all out tyrany, like a runaway freight train. We the people, are just starting to see what's happening. Many haven't seen it yet. And some never will. When the people finally get organized to do something about the runaway govt, it may be too late.

    The way our govt is spending money (both in the past and present) is going to bring the country to its knees. China is lending us all the money we need, but they are banking on us failing and they start to seize assets to recover their loans. Hmmm, what could they take? They could start with a large chunk of GM. Then get even deeper in our financial markets, and take possesion of banks. They could get into the healthcare. Etc etc.

    I for one am very afraid for this country and the people in it. I fear, like so many times before, the people are gonna do too little, too late. Hopefully, I'm wrong, and the shit hits the fan real quick, and we come out of this. But....
    92, 4.0, AW4, SOA, 8.8, D30, 37's, etc etc
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    Everytime someone installs a Super35 kit, an angel looses its wings. Do you want that on your shoulders every time you get in the jeep? Why, I think not...

  13. #13
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    i see us following the roman empire. i pray that we can get a grassroots uprising but alas, i fear it may be too late as well. all i know is i will do what i can till the end.
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    Capitalism in its purest form eventually turns into socialism or a dictatorship.

    Health care is an instance where capitalism fails -- so the gov't needs to do something. Health care has an inelastic demand and is needed. So everyone can price gouge. Everyone includes a lot more than insurance companies -- it includes the hospitals with inconsistent pricing schemes to maximize profits, pharmaceutical companies that make a bunch of profits and the financial analysts tell you to invest in (this is a catch 22 though because many of the profits are reinvested into research), medical equipment companies that can charge an arm and a leg for a very specialized piece of machinery.

    All of these inter-relationships make the prices go up.

    The only way it's going to get under control is for the government to regulate the health care industry. Note that I said regulate and not "run". As of the last time I read it, I have very little problem with the heath care bill if they remove the public option.

    The public option, though it's not marketed as such, is bound to kill insurance companies because they won't be able to compete with the low-cost alternative that they have no choice but to help fund (through the taxes they pay).

    Maybe this is folklore because I haven't validated it, but I heard there was a county (in Hawaii I believe) that tried to give free health care in a similar way (give people the option to go through the gov't or private insurance) and it ran out of money in like 3-6 months. Why? They grossly underestimated the number of people that switched to the "free" health care. Whether it's true or not, I see no reason why this logic fails.
    Last edited by SirFuego; 01-03-2010 at 01:17 PM.
    [URL="http://www.pgh-offroad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7670"][/URL]

  15. #15
    PghOffRoad Forum Addict! TimMichaels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notmYJ View Post
    The way our govt is spending money (both in the past and present) is going to bring the country to its knees. China is lending us all the money we need, but they are banking on us failing and they start to seize assets to recover their loans. Hmmm, what could they take? They could start with a large chunk of GM. Then get even deeper in our financial markets, and take possesion of banks. They could get into the healthcare. Etc etc.
    I'm not so sure that China's long term intent is to begin taking our assets. The reasoning behind them backing our economy is that by essentially subsidizing our overspending it ensures that their biggest market for manufactured goods can continually buy more and more. This has also allowed them to link their currency to ours and increase its value internationally (although now it is stuck.) China will suffer overwhelmingly from an economic collapse stateside due to a high percentage of their market being obliterated, and thus they help fund it to keep it alive. That said, it may also be a way for them to gain a stronger hand in international politics.

    Either way it's a pretty precarious situation.
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  16. #16
    Trail Leader Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirFuego View Post
    Capitalism in its purest form eventually turns into socialism or a dictatorship.

    .
    Please show me where. Where has capitalism turned into a dictatorship?

    Do you mean unprincipled capitalism?
    example.... do every thing you can even endanger or sell out people or your country for profit?

    Doing something for profit is not evil.
    Even if you provide life saving medicine or service.

    This health care bill is not about helping people. I think it is for control and regulation of you.
    If it is soooo good why is conrgess exempt?

    Where are the mass graves of those who do not have healthcare?
    Saved by Grace

    There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation. – James Madison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Please show me where. Where has capitalism turned into a dictatorship?
    We all know that monopolies and collusion breaks capitalism.

    Pure capitalism = unregulated capitalism (which has never happened, and I would argue never will). Think about a capitalistic society without anti-trust laws. You can sure as hell bet there would be collusion and mergers that would drive up prices -- regardless of what product is offered. Mergers would become commonplace. Eventually if enough mergers happen, there will only be a handful of companies that basically control everything. Those companies might compete for a while, but from a business point of view, a monopoly is better than competition, so they may eventually merge. It won't happen immediately, but I'd argue that given enough time, 1 or 2 companies will eventually control everything...

    Profits aren't the problem -- greediness is. If someone (or some organization) has the desire to control everything and has the ability to work towards that goal. They will. Once someone (or some organization) controls mostly everything, you basically have socialism and/or a dictatorship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Do you mean unprincipled capitalism?
    example.... do every thing you can even endanger or sell out people or your country for profit?
    Yep, health care is a prime example of this. If deserving people weren't denied coverage due to a technicality found by a lawyer hired to do everything they can to deny coverage to people, we wouldn't be having this argument.
    Last edited by SirFuego; 01-03-2010 at 07:47 PM.
    [URL="http://www.pgh-offroad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7670"][/URL]

  18. #18
    Trail Leader Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirFuego View Post
    We all know that monopolies and collusion breaks capitalism..
    That still does not explain how capitalisim which is a market system becomes a form of government as a dictatorship.
    I'll give you greed could take it there. The two cannot be considered the same or causing one or the other

    It can when companies like GE which has the largest lobbying group in washington happens to be pushing cap and trade leg. when it stands to be the primary beneficiary.


    [quote=Yep, health care is a prime example of this. If deserving people weren't denied coverage due to a technicality found by a lawyer hired to do everything they can to deny coverage to people, we wouldn't be having this argument.[/quote]

    What makes people deserving of healthcare?

    What makes it my responsibility to pay for you?

    Why should I go to jail if I do not want to pay for your poor health?

    Why should I pay fines or go to jail if I do not want health insurance?

    What qualifies thr gov. to regulate this? what is their resume, social security? welfare? been fightin poverty since 1964
    amtrak, medicare? cash for clunkers?

    I'm not being mean... these are serious questions
    Saved by Grace

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    What makes people deserving of healthcare?

    What makes it my responsibility to pay for you?
    In this sense, what about all other things provided by the government? What makes people deserving of the parks and public recreation facilities that are available? What about the roadways? Anything and everything that is subsidized in an effort to create affordability and/or make industries/jobs more profitable? To single out healthcare is a very narrow view.
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  20. #20
    Trail Leader Christopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimMichaels View Post
    In this sense, what about all other things provided by the government? What makes people deserving of the parks and public recreation facilities that are available? What about the roadways? Anything and everything that is subsidized in an effort to create affordability and/or make industries/jobs more profitable? To single out healthcare is a very narrow view.
    That is only one narrow part of my argument. It could come under the constitution as promote the general welfare. Not provide general welfare.
    It is part of the bigger picture

    This has more impact than a state park or roadway
    Just one example

    "Waiting lists are a major problem. As
    many as 750,000 Britons are currently awaiting
    admission to NHS hospitals. These waits are
    not insubstantial and can impose significant
    risks on patients. For example, by some estimates,
    cancer patients can wait as long as eight

    months for treatment.
    236 Delays in receiving

    treatment are often so long that nearly 20 percent


    of colon cancer patients considered treatable

    when first diagnosed are incurable by the






    time treatment is finally offered.
    237


    the above is found here from march 2008


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    Public roads, parks, military, fire depts., etc are for the use and benefit of all citizens. They are not services provided to those the gov't chooses through the extortion of those they don't choose.
    By the way, they do have laws and regulations covering the medical system. Who do you know that has been turned down at an emergency room for inability to pay? It is regulations and mandates that screwed up GM and Chrysler. (Where's that diesel JK?)
    It's not the consumer who demanded shitty little econo boxes. That reminds me, where are all our natural resources going? Nowhere! Unused! Purchased from people who swear to wipe us out!
    No rights come at another person's expense. Those are called services.
    People on welfare should not be allowed to vote.
    Jeez, this topic is so vast it's hard to keep my mind on track!
    God help us. But we need to help ourselves first. God doesn't do welfare.

    As a former hippy-punk-freak, I always knew it was America that allowed me my choices. I always chose self sufficiency and strength, and it disgusted me that so many people chose dependance and listlesness.

    Note to self: Buy ammo for the other guns too.
    Wow, that was close!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    That still does not explain how capitalisim which is a market system becomes a form of government as a dictatorship.
    I'll give you greed could take it there. The two cannot be considered the same or causing one or the other

    It can when companies like GE which has the largest lobbying group in washington happens to be pushing cap and trade leg. when it stands to be the primary beneficiary.
    If one or two companies are able to set prices and produce/sell whatever it sees fit, how is that really any different from the gov't controlling you? It may not officially be socialism or dictatorship, but in practice it essentially would be.



    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    What makes people deserving of healthcare?

    What makes it my responsibility to pay for you?

    Why should I go to jail if I do not want to pay for your poor health?

    Why should I pay fines or go to jail if I do not want health insurance?

    What qualifies thr gov. to regulate this? what is their resume, social security? welfare? been fightin poverty since 1964
    amtrak, medicare? cash for clunkers?

    I'm not being mean... these are serious questions
    Please re-read my original post. I am 100% against the public option (and all other points relevant to the public option such as mandating health insurance). I don't want my tax dollars paying for someone else's healthcare.

    My point is that the reason health care is so expensive is because it's a market that prices can basically go unchecked and won't ever self-correct itself. Whether you want to admit it or not, you are currently paying for other people's healthcare. There are a number of people that get treatment that can't pay for it. Someone needs to foot that bill -- it propagates through higher healthcare costs to those that can afford it. Malpractice suits contribute significant costs to healthcare because insurance for doctors is so damn expensive. Make it harder to file malpractice suits (which from my understanding this bill will do) and costs automatically go down since insurance costs will go down.

    The major problem, IMO, is that just having health insurance is no guarantee that they will pay for your medical bill. I'm sorry, but why should I be paying my hard earned dollars on insurance if some technicality such as a mole I've had since birth is considered a "pre-existing condition"? If I'm paying for healthcare, I want to have some idea of when I would NOT be covered, so I can spend my money elsewhere. I don't want to drop thousands of dollars to the same company only to find out I'm not covered in a time I expected to be covered.

    My point is that there is a shit ton of bloat and greed in the health care system (that will NOT self-correct itself) and much of that can be removed through some regulation. I am not implying in any way that the gov't should run healthcare.

    As for their resume to regulate stuff:
    OSHA -- nice to know that certain safety measures can be met
    FDA -- nice to know that the food and drugs I get are safe to consume
    FCC -- nice to know that there is some organization to the radio waves that go through the air -- so that when I turn on the evening news, I know I'm getting the evening news and not a neighbor next door making their own public service announcement.
    FAA -- nice to know that it isn't a free-for-all in the air
    Last edited by SirFuego; 01-04-2010 at 12:21 AM.
    [URL="http://www.pgh-offroad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7670"][/URL]

  23. #23
    Trail Leader Christopher's Avatar
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    Thank God they run the military right....so far

    I see and agree with some of your points.

    This current leg is not what it is needed and I feel it is going to rammed through even states and people are looking at ways to dismantle it before it is passed.

    It can be simpler and in smaller measures than 2000+ pages that no one knows what they are signing or who is doing most of the writing. (I heard the bill creating the interstate highway system was 14 pages, I've not verified)

    We were sold the financial emergency bailout mess and we have extra TARP( still defecit) that is now a slush fund they are trying to find ways to spend instead of putting it back.

    Whenever you have these clowns tell you something is urgent and needs done now it is no good.

    I want no action before the wrong action especially when it is forcing me to participate in a already tried and failed system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Thank God they run the military right....so far

    I see and agree with some of your points.

    This current leg is not what it is needed and I feel it is going to rammed through even states and people are looking at ways to dismantle it before it is passed.

    It can be simpler and in smaller measures than 2000+ pages that no one knows what they are signing or who is doing most of the writing. (I heard the bill creating the interstate highway system was 14 pages, I've not verified)

    We were sold the financial emergency bailout mess and we have extra TARP( still defecit) that is now a slush fund they are trying to find ways to spend instead of putting it back.

    Whenever you have these clowns tell you something is urgent and needs done now it is no good.

    I want no action before the wrong action especially when it is forcing me to participate in a already tried and failed system.
    Yes I completely agree. The rate at which they are trying to pass such a massive bill is quite scary. We were originally supposed to have this passed by September because it was such a "dire situation" -- and it's still not passed.

    I'm convinced that the reason they are trying to push all this through is because of the Democratic majority so they can get as many Democratic policies passed before they lose the majority.
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    ^ Bingo, you hit the nail on the head with the idea of passing what they can while they have a majority, that is my thought behind the current rationale in the government regarding policy and actions.
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