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Thread: Pittsburgh Police and Open Carry

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    Less posting, more wheeling! joshs1ofakindxj's Avatar
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    Pittsburgh Police and Open Carry

    Whether you agree with open carry or not, it is sad that PGH Police are not up to speed on open carry and no duty to inform:

    Discussion: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...-recorded.html


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    Lightbulb

    MOST LE it seems in the bigger cities especially, seem nominally clueless about the LTCF laws. Have you seen any of that ol' boy from Philthy's problems on PAFOA the last few years?

    I grew up in NC - L-O-N-G an open carry state, much like PA (from Colonial times!), but up until the 1980's, OC was NEVER an issue there (homogenous culture). It wasn't until the anti-gun Yankee sorts (present company excepted) began moving there en masse, and all began crapping their britches over people with <<<GASP!>>>, FIREARMS!

    It took NC LONGER to get CCW passed than it did PA (although they had castle doctrine sooner), but it came about mainly becaused of transplanted nanny-staters, who didn't want to SEE open carry, even though open carry is still legal there, too.

    I've been in Pittsburgh 10 years now, so I don't know what its like there now for folks who OC. I gotta believe, LE there is MORE used to seeing OC than they are here, but then, LE is a YOUNG man's endeavor. Kids are indoctrinated EVERYWHERE these days, that "ALL guns are 'bad/eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil' guns." Maybe they're JUST as oblivious now, too.

    In MY line of work, "discreet" is considered a virtue, so I CCW, and have my valid PA LTCF. I empathize with OC folks though. I think if I WERE to OC, I might even have some laminated cards made up, quoting the exact PA statutes on the matter, just to hand to every cop who hassled me. Extra work on MY part, yeah, but maybe it would cut the hassle to a minimum when it comes...
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    Anyone on here ever been hassled like that?
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    Right Wing Extremist! DMG's Avatar
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    Sad to say but police don't really know or care about the laws in this country.

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    You know, all departments in PA got their MPOTEC paperwork some time ago. And after the Philly lawsuit, you would think the AG's office would be up to speed.

    What colossal ignorance.

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    Who was the uppity whore that was running her yapper in the initial contact, i'd like to knock the taste out that dumb bitch's mouth, makes all officer's look like a bunch of dumb asses. God if I was the shift supervisor on that shift i'd be having a long talk with every officer that responded to that scene. There are dipshit's in every profession. I can't stand ignorance in any job. Thing is, they don't cover some of the finer points of laws etc. enough in schooling I feel. I am a CRJ major and have taken a HELL of a lot of classes with some great instructor's and professors, and have never touched upon no duty to inform, or carry laws for the most part. It is something that needs to be taught I feel...
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    Quote Originally Posted by BUZZINHALFDOZZEN View Post
    Anyone on here ever been hassled like that?
    Only once, by a Sgt in the Castle Shannon PD office (not in a court facility or other prohibited place) when I came in to report stolen property. He stared at me like I had tits growing out of my waist, and proceeded to go on much in the same way, and I told him according to the uniform firearms act of Pennsylvania, he could not make up his own rules in a muninciple building, to which he started to flip through law book type things (like reference cards) looking for how I was in the wrong.

    After a few more minutes of me pointing out him being in the wrong, I decided to go lock it in the rental car, voicing my discomfort and disagreement with doing so, and filed my report. He asked if I ever had trouble with it, and before that, I never did. been open carrying (depending on how i dress) for the better part of 3 years now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ridgerunner97 View Post
    I am a CRJ major and have taken a HELL of a lot of classes with some great instructor's and professors, and have never touched upon no duty to inform, or carry laws for the most part. It is something that needs to be taught I feel...
    It has been touched on, it was mandatory training for all PA police departments in 2009. They either have let that training lapse, or there is a culture of ignorance to the law that has been passed down the ranks on the subject.
    Last edited by Azzy; 04-17-2012 at 09:53 PM.

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    It seemed to me at the beginning of the recording the cop was just asking for ID. Not really a big deal hell you can't even pay your water bill with out showing photo ID. I hate laws, but if people keep getting a hard on about open carry, cops and the people doing it. They will pass a law banning it soon enough.
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    Moderator of the DeeDeeDees! Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMG View Post
    Sad to say but police don't really know or care about the laws in this country.
    And most auto shops are filled with dope fiends and crack heads... I guess I am not the only one that can throw around random BS general statements. I mean, if we are going to sterotype based on profession then lets do that.

    Oh, and Dave... I can edit too...
    Last edited by Bill; 04-18-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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    The recording was started a minute or so after the initial confrontation, so says the guy who made it.

    and a great reason for not offering ID, especially since the guy is from out of town:

    One reason for not unnecessarily giving your ID is to avoid having your name mentioned in the incident report. It goes against you in your "permanent record" (the one that was started when you were in kindergarten) and will forever reside in their searchable database.

    So, what happens the next time you need to renew your LTCF? Will those reports, written to show only the officers in a good light, come back to haunt you?
    Many places still have an illegal character clause that will prevent them from renewing a LCTF. on the other hand, some Sheriff's offices have mobile units to bring the firearms licensing division to public events

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    Previously "TurboTJ"
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    <CJRS major LEO background,

    In VA you are only required to provide ID when asked. They have a "walker ID" anyone over 18 must have it.

    That being said, I am not up to speed on PA law... If this was Va all they would have to have done is provide their DL to the cop by the letter of the law. You aren't required to answer shit passed that thanks to the 5th admendment. You can look at them and literally say nothing. I mean nothing and let it play out for open carry and hopefully someone up the command staff catches on before you go to the pookie.

    However when stopped myself after I left LE... I always say- officer I have a CC permit, I am open carrying today as allowed by Article I sec. 13 of the VA consitition and 18.2-308 of the VA code as ammend. I understand for the concern, and will cooperate with your investigation. Never had a problem but VA is FAR more gun friendly

    But playing it cool but firm is alright and better...
    Last edited by DixieJeeper; 04-18-2012 at 01:02 AM.
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    Less posting, more wheeling! joshs1ofakindxj's Avatar
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    In PA there is no duty to inform and no duty to provide an LTCF while OC on foot, so as long as I have to stop at a stop sign and wear pants in public, I don't have to self identify either. Also, LEOs in PA (arguably) have no expectation of privacy while performing their duties in public, so audio recording like the one in the OP is permissible, but it is usually required that you inform all parties that they are being recorded.

    It's a simple matter of following the rules on both sides, and it's related to "innocent until proven guilty". Fundamentally, Joe six pack walking down the street with his 6 shooter on his hip is in the legal right in PA, and should not be harassed or stopped by a LEO unless he breaks the law. If a LEO starts to harass you on an issue, get out your phone, and call 911, and tell them a man with a gun in a blue outfit is threatening you.

    As long as more people ARE doing it, I doubt you will see legislation against it, unless the politicians decide to go against there constituents on a 2A issue, which is a guaranteed career shortener for a politician.

    And ya, Bill is one of the good guys!

    The guys that were down there have some big balls for OCing outside Consol on a game night.

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    Premium Supporting Member OverkillZJ's Avatar
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    I have no disrespect for police in general, but the only bad experiences I've ever had were with Pittsburgh officers, on both a professional and personal level.

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    Premium Supporting Member OverkillZJ's Avatar
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    One note on the second half: I agree with the officers in the second half, they stated he was within his rights, but people would flip out a bit and call in a lot of false alarms. That's true. The issue is more with the general population. He had a carry permit and was fishing for a problem.

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    If I do not have a CCWP and I open carry am I fishing for a problem?
    I dont know if these guys were or not. Who cares if they were? That makes them stupid. It doesnt make them criminals.

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    Premium Supporting Member OverkillZJ's Avatar
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    Fishing and being down town in a major city in a crowd before a Pens game with a firearm being flashed around are very different.

    You're within your rights to be a dick, but it's your choice to exercise those rights. I don't see how they are criminals - they were never forced to show ID and were sent on their merry way. This isn't a bid deal.

    Carry permits are easy to get, problem solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OverkillZJ View Post
    Fishing and being down town in a major city in a crowd before a Pens game with a firearm being flashed around are very different.

    You're within your rights to be a dick, but it's your choice to exercise those rights. I don't see how they are criminals - they were never forced to show ID and were sent on their merry way. This isn't a bid deal.

    Carry permits are easy to get, problem solved.
    There really isnt a difference as far as Im concerned since Im legal to OC while doing both. I dont think they were flashing it around.
    Completely agree with the rights to be a dick though I dont think they were being dicks because they were open carrying.
    They are not criminals but were treated as such. They were told to self identify for no reason and produce papers.
    Educate L.E.O. Problem solved. I dont need a carry permit to carry. I shouldnt need to hide my lawfully carried weapon just to make "you" feel safe when you go down town.

    My opinion is way different and Ill just leave it at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mykal View Post
    If I do not have a CCWP and I open carry am I fishing for a problem?
    I dont know if these guys were or not. Who cares if they were? That makes them stupid. It doesnt make them criminals.
    I think the only stupidity shown was by the LEOs who showed their ignorance of the law. I don't think these guys were fishing for trouble, unless they have deep pockets and lots of vacation time at work. They were exercising their rights, and I don't call people who exercise their rights and become familiarized with the law stupid.

    Like I said, you don't need a LTCF to OC in PA. If the breeze were to pick up and the wind blew your shirt over your weapon partially you could, arguably, be concealing and need an LTCF. As soon as you get in a car, or jump on a motorcycle, or any other vehicle of transportation, then you need an LTCF. If there is a state of emergency, or you are in a city of the 1st class, like Philadelphia, again you need an LTCF to OC or CC.

    Also, in PA we have a License to Carry a Firearm, not a Concealed Carry Weapons Permit. Our LTCF is further reaching than a CCWP by definition, but that isn't worth arguing about, just sayin'.

    Edit: I think your first question that I quoted was a real question, but now I think not.
    Last edited by joshs1ofakindxj; 04-18-2012 at 08:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mykal View Post
    There really isnt a difference as far as Im concerned since Im legal to OC while doing both. I dont think they were flashing it around.
    Completely agree with the rights to be a dick though I dont think they were being dicks because they were open carrying.
    They are not criminals but were treated as such. They were told to self identify for no reason and produce papers.
    Educate L.E.O. Problem solved. I dont need a carry permit to carry. I shouldnt need to hide my lawfully carried weapon just to make "you" feel safe when you go down town.

    My opinion is way different and Ill just leave it at that.
    They were probably doing the same thing I do when I OC...nothing, just going about my business and blowing kisses to all the pretty girls.

    Unfortunately, this city street confrontation seems to be the way to educate some LEOs, I just hope it doesn't leave a bad taste in their mouths for the next time they meet an OCer and they know he is doing nothing wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OverkillZJ View Post
    The issue is more with the general population.
    I believe when someone OC's, they should be an ambassador for the firearm community. Act properly, be polite, make conversation and inform people about the law, and above all, keep calm and carry on.

    If someone wants to ask me about OC I usually have an ice breaker, like on black friday when the manager or head cashier at Walmart in Jeannette got a twisted, shocked look on her face when I told her, "Yes, that is a real gun." and, "I'm carrying it because of the sales!" and every other customer and cashier in ear shot started laughing, the situation was diffused and a confrontation avoided.

    Moments like that are a step towards getting the majority of the population in step with OC and the public display of firearms. You won't get everyone, which is why I say "majority".

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    Premium Supporting Member OverkillZJ's Avatar
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    Yes, you have the right to open carry - but large crowds in a city are already a stressful situation, especially for the police. Of course you can exercise your rights, and that is your choice, but I feel it far more productive to remove the need for such a confrontation in the first place. Just conceal it. Big deal. I realize that most of you other pro gun guys won't agree with me on that, but I don't care. You need to understand that most folks aren't comfortable around firearms like you are. Maybe I'm just more a polite guy, I just don't see the need to put yourselves in situations where you're most likely going to cause drama. F drama.

    The guy was fishing for a problem. You can hear him joking about it at the end of the video. Drama queen with a gun. Not a big-man ambassador of open carry.

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    So a choice of dress and standing up for a right makes for a drama queen? To me the fact that my firearm is showing or not is more due to what my clothing choices for the day are.

    Guy just had a pretty stressful situation, and handled himself well, and educated some officers that should have known better about the limits of their authority.

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    VA has a law to require to identify due the large gang problems in NoVa.

    I agree with Josh AND Matt.... It is within their right to go down to the consol engery center and be on the public areas on nonprivate are with a OC. It is also witin their right to not identify due to PA law. There obviously was at least one officer (male possibly the K9 officer it sounds like) who knew what was going on and was cool, the other officer wasn't expereenced enough or perhaps ignorant to the uniform gun law in PA.

    That being said I understand and support what they were doing- excercise your rights (1st/2nd/5th etc.) or they will be lost through gradual attrition.

    Which is what they were doing- but it was at a pens game and you know there were alot of yuppies that have never even been in the same room as a gun, that would/did freak when they got out to the game and ran into them- which causes multiple calls for service.

    As side note/story:

    There was a guy in Richmond that OC'd on the bus to work downtown everyday. One day someone new on the bus called 911- (Richmond at this time was in the midst of a turn around from the murder capital of the US to a pretty decent city with a low crime rate.) The officers responded enforce as it was described by later news accounts as a man waving that had a "gun out" (LEO/Dispatch interpretation as brandishing and waving)

    LE stopped the bus and had ERT outside and around the bus.. they entered the bus and by this time everyone on the bus just about was freaking out- my wife said. When they relalized there was no threat they pulled everyone off the bus. The OC guy was a cool cat, identifiied and withint a few minutes was let back on the bus with the gun. The 911 caller freaked out and the cops pulled her back off the bus and gave her a SCHOOLING my wife said about the difference between legally carrying and "waving a gun around" like she told the 911 dispatcher. They also reiforced it was ok to call 911 when in doubt but don't exgerate. Guy was on the bus OC'ing till the day we moved out of Richmond. It made the local and regional news too
    Last edited by DixieJeeper; 04-18-2012 at 03:10 PM.
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    I have grease stains on the knees of my dockers Muzikman's Avatar
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    I do have to agree with Matt on this. Yes, it's your right, but is it a right that is needed to be exercised at that time and place? And the cops are right about one point, you are going to draw a lot of attention and you are going to cause people to call 911 and you are going to waste the police's time since they have to respond.

    I am pro gun, I am an NRA Lifer, but just like many things in life, you have to think about others some times. In today's world, people are cautious about guns. There are just too many crazies out there willing to shoot up an office or school full of people. When someone see's someone with a gun, they get concerned, they don't know your intentions. With the number of school shootings these days, someone with a gun around campus is going to draw attention. And I'll be honest, I think it's the police's responsibility to investigate. Can you image in someone called 911 to report someone walking around Duquesne with a gun, the cops don't respond and that person walks into building and start firing away?

    What is the harm in concealing it? You still have it on you, you are still protecting yourself and you don't draw the attention to yourself. Problem solved.
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    Right Wing Extremist! DMG's Avatar
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    I think the point of OC'ers is to let the public get used to the fact that 99.9999% of the time an armed person is not about to commit a crime and to remind ignorant police of our rights.
    Matt and Jason, there are people out there that don't see the need for us to drive lifted trucks. They are dangerous, etc. It is our right and it doesn't matter if it upsets anyone else.

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