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Thread: Timeline of the recent fight over Hawkins Hollow

  1. #1
    Trail Leader bookfiend's Avatar
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    Timeline of the recent fight over Hawkins Hollow

    Full articles are linked, cliffs notes are in between.

    Campground is given permission to open

    June 14, 2002 - Fayette County Planning Commission votes 3-2 to allow Leon Shal to open Indian Creek Camplands w/162 primitive campsites on 100 acres. Several weeks before on June 3, 2002, supervisors agreed to turn over control of the road to Leon Shal, without asking anybody or advertising the meeting. Neighboring residents raise protests, illegal activity is complained about.

    Supervisors consider turning road over to resident

    June 29, 2002 - Since they had no right to vacate the road just like that, they then 'considered' closing the road, with lots of comments for and against.

    Residents oppose limiting access

    July 2, 2002 - A public comment meeting was held, with over 40 residents in attendance, most for keeping it open. Attorney Richard Bower represented several adjacent property owners, and submitted a petition with several hundred names, for keeping public access open.

    Township supervisors say no to gate request

    August 6, 2002 - "Every person in attendance - besides Shal, his lawyer and two other township residents - supported the supervisors' decision to keep the road open. "If this is about property being vandalized, you can't stop that," said one lady in attendance. "I live in a borough, and I get that. It happens anywhere. It's life."
    Others stated that it was a beautiful place for families on a low income to go enjoy their vacation.
    Still others claimed that they take bags down with them and actually clean up garbage that others leave."

    2003 - The planning comission's ruling is appealed by those same adjacent property owners. The planning comission ruled that Shal had to amend his development plans, which called the road 'private' to public.

    MAWC beefs up security at reservoir

    May 14, 2004 - The MAWC hired 10 county sheriffs to 'stop the trespassing before it gets started.' Complaints (by guess whom?), led to the MAWC being cited for running a campground and a junkyard on the property. Since they acted proactively, authorities put off the complaint and citation for the time being. MAWC expressed concern over the $10-20K annual expense of 'water police' but said it pales in comparison to fencing off the whole 1600 acres.

    Party's over at Fayette reservoir site

    June 11, 2004 - MAWC reports great success patrolling before and during Memorial Day weekend with no major problems to speak of. MAWC officials also noted receiving emails from from people upset that actions of a few have kept everyone from enjoying the land. The zoning office could not comment on 'withdrawing the court case' as of yet.

    Springfield residents should band together

    April 20, 2004 - Neighboring resident Paul Mulligan makes excellent points in his letter to the editor. "
    In my 30 years (going there), I've never encountered any of the unsavory biker gangs or terrorists mentioned in your article. I frequently ride my trail bike to Indian Creek, so I suppose I could be called a biker. The water company is being made a scapegoat by interests that would take this public treasure for private commercial purposes."
    I didn't come across the Feb 13 article he cites, but iirc it was overly dramatic in referring to the arsonists, drug users and terrorists.

    2005, 2006 - Leon Shal is curiously absent from causing problems at Hawkins Hollow briefly. It is discovered by state investigators that he had billed the state (150K) for youth counseling work, but was not qualified to do so with a diploma-mill diploma with two misspellings on it. He receives ARD and eventually gets back to his mission of charging people to enter Hawkins Hollow via Indian Creek Road.

    Hawkins Hollow property not for sale

    June 15, 2007 - Indian Creek Camplands owner Leon Shal has apparently been pestering the MAWC to purchase some of their property, in order to 'keep unwanted visitors out.' "We've done a good job of cleaning up the property. We've told him (Shal) we're not interested in selling the property," said authority Manager Chris Kerr.

    He wants to keep the public out, yet to run a successful campland in such a remote location, these are exactly the people he should be advertising to. People will pay to camp at a campground, they just don't want to pay each and every time they ride down into the hollow for a few hours. Fight to block public access while at the same time you are hoping to court the public to come patronize your business???

    Dangerous road

    October 3, 2007 - Supervisors once again are considering closing the road permanently. A hearing is tentatively scheduled for November 13, 2007. The 2002 meetings were held in the fire hall in Mill Run. When an exact location and date is announced, I'll post them up.


    Last edited by bookfiend; 10-17-2007 at 08:34 PM.

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    Premium Supporting Member OverkillZJ's Avatar
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    There's so many land use disputes that I don't even know what to worry about any more

    I just hope my kids have a place to wheel, safely, some day. And I don't even have kids yet, so damnit, I'd like to have some trails in the future!
    Last edited by OverkillZJ; 10-17-2007 at 12:22 AM. Reason: fixed spelling

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    Trail Leader bookfiend's Avatar
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    Yeah, and if we don't start fighting for access there won't be any trails left!

    What kills me is if you go further up the mountain, it seems like everything is either state park, game lands, nature reserve or conservancy. And none of those want rubber tires anywhere except parked in those little tiny parking lots they have. They tell us and ATV owners that we have to be patient, it takes time to raise the money to create 'offroad' trails. This is one area that has long been covered with tons of trails, yet the 'No motorized vehicle' folks creep closer and closer every year. Topo maps show tons of 'jeep trails' that are no longer rideable because the authorities gated them off.

    I would have liked to make the petition more about the road, and less about the public access thing, since that is already somewhat protected by the future bike/hike trail along the old railbed. But offroaders and ATVers don't ever seem to get any support from any authorities. To them, we're all scofflaws.

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    Premium Supporting Member OverkillZJ's Avatar
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    What I find truly ironic is that they may consider us "scofflaws" - but when you factor in income, taxes paid, and "gas bought" - we "pay in" a whole CRAPLOAD more than those groups that are supported for causes like this.

    I'm not trying to take away from other important activities like hiking and biking as I love them as well, but the fact is that during my entire lifetime, money from me has gone to supporing them. So, what am I getting?

  5. #5
    Trail Leader bookfiend's Avatar
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    The bicyclers gather together and apply for grants to fund their little pet projects. Unfortunately myself and probably most of you guys have no desire to get into politics or grant writing. Legalese, yuck.

    Local officials would be tickled if 'hundreds' of people gathered on the weekends at the bike trails. But they don't, and especially not now that the weather's turning colder.

    Yet when 'hundreds' of people turn up at Hawkins Hollow they must be up to something evil. Not just out to enjoy the scenery in a jeep, no way!

  6. #6
    Less posting, more wheeling! gonecheenin's Avatar
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    Other states have nice legal places to wheel on public property that is even supported & defended by the local governments & surprisingly enough the forest has not burned down or stopped producing oxygen for the earth
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    Moderator of the DeeDeeDees! Bill's Avatar
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    So why dont we all just show up on November 13th and voice our opinion?
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    Go Big Or Go Homo! jeepxj3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    So why dont we all just show up on November 13th and voice our opinion?
    im game.
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    Moderator of the DeeDeeDees! Bill's Avatar
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    We would have to keep it managable and polite, but I am sure that a showing of numbers would make a statement. I can see it now... Nothing but Jeeps and trucks with oversized tires in the parking lot.
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    I have grease stains on the knees of my dockers Muzikman's Avatar
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    I agree, large number of responsible wheelers would be a good thing, just have to make sure they are also respectful. I think just a large volume of people would send a message.

    Remember folks...sign the petition and send it in.

    http://www.pgh-offroad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4646
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    Go Big Or Go Homo! jeepxj3's Avatar
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    Dana, make us a BIG Sign.
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  12. #12
    Moderator of the DeeDeeDees! Bill's Avatar
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    I would advise anyone who is coming to be "street legal" because if we get enough of a turn out I am sure we will be attracting some attention.
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  13. #13
    Go Big Or Go Homo! jeepxj3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    I would advise anyone who is coming to be "street legal" because if we get enough of a turn out I am sure we will be attracting some attention.
    does this mean my Heep will need to be inspected?
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    PghOffRoad Forum Addict!
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    just a side note to all who are planning on attending... try to dress nice... at least business casual... polo/button up shirt... slacks/kahkis.. or at least a nice pair of jeans...
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    Premium Supporting Member OverkillZJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    So why dont we all just show up on November 13th and voice our opinion?
    Bill, if you're willing to speak for us, I think I can be there. I'm not much of a public speaker kinda person, I'd rather yell at them, and that wouldn't help

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    PghOffRoad Forum Addict! Bird_Flu's Avatar
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    I'll see if I can join you that evening Matt. Even though I have not been there I can speak if no one else wants to.

  17. #17
    Less posting, more wheeling! notmYJ's Avatar
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    I am in for going to the meeting.
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    PghOffRoad Forum Addict! TimMichaels's Avatar
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    If no one wants to speak, I could go to bat. I'm younger but I'm also a public speaking major... I write and give speeches on a weekly basis among other acts of speaking in public...
    Tally-ho!
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    I have grease stains on the knees of my dockers Muzikman's Avatar
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    Tim, if you can make it down, I really think you need to be there. You are exactly the type of person they need to see. Young, mature and an avid outdoor recreationalist (is that even a word?). I think you would be a great person to speak.

    I do not know what type of format the meeting will be. I don't know how many people will be allowed to speak, or if anyone will actually be give the chance to formally speak. Maybe Goo can shed some light on how the last meeting panned out.
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    Less posting, more wheeling!
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    you know i can get some people who have ties with channel 4 news to try to get a news crew out there for more public support. not sure if news coverage would help or not but...

    anyone know the time of this meeting? i know it's on Nov.13th but is it a evening meeting or day meeting?

    as for respect, i guess we shouldn't come with pich forks and torches and rebel flags flying,

  21. #21
    Less posting, more wheeling!
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    ill go, im only 15, but is they see that young RESPONSIBLE kids are there(yes, i only ride my bike and hike on legal trails and public right of ways) they might reconsider. and yes, ill keep my moth shut unless im spoken to.
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    I am in as long as it is a evening. I just need to know the time to be there and if we are meeting in a central location.

  23. #23
    Trail Leader bookfiend's Avatar
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    OK! Well,

    The 2002 meeting I went to was held in the evening (7PMish), and in that article they called it the municipal building. I think they may have a small chamber for normal meetings, and this one had 40-50 people, so they held it in the fire hall, possibly the same building. This was the Springfield Township fire hall, 771 Mill Run Rd. Springfield Township Volunteer Co. - Map to A According to the article it's 'tentative' but I'll see what I can find out.

    Tim - I would be grateful if you would speak. They started off with standard meeting stuff minutes, motions, etc. Then went right into the issue at hand, seemed like first the officials and official guests (like EMT, fire dept) spoke, then they let anybody who wanted to say their piece, in an orderly row by row fashion. I am a terrible public speaker. PM me and I'll give you as much detail as I can about the atmosphere, characters involved, etc.

    Gibson - read the third or fourth article in full. They did a section of one article quoting 'a youth's perspective' on the matter. Yeah, as long as you are respectful, all support helps.

    A sign or maybe a presentation type poster deal should probably go over well. Faces change, and officials among all parties might not know the whole progression of events. I remember seeing this board hold a clean-up up there not too long ago, though I missed it when it happened, hadn't checked the board. Offering to clean up and showing proof we have tried in the past seems to be well received. Even if it doesn't always give us access, who is anything but happy when you offer to clean up garbage?!
    Last edited by bookfiend; 10-22-2007 at 08:39 PM.

  24. #24
    PghOffRoad Forum Addict! TimMichaels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bookfiend View Post
    Tim - I would be grateful if you would speak. They started off with standard meeting stuff minutes, motions, etc. Then went right into the issue at hand, seemed like first the officials and official guests (like EMT, fire dept) spoke, then they let anybody who wanted to say their piece, in an orderly row by row fashion. I am a terrible public speaker, I got booed actually and I was trying to be helpful. PM me and I'll give you as much detail as I can about the atmosphere, characters involved, etc.
    I should be able to make it as long as I don't end up at a debate tourney. I'm done with soccer so I will have plenty of free time to put together a decent speech if needed. Please PM with as much detail as you can!
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  25. #25
    I have grease stains on the knees of my dockers Muzikman's Avatar
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    Bump...


    The link in the petition thread seems to be wrong.

    Can we get this and the petition thread stickied?
    Jason "Muzikman" Beam
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